I'll run it by her PC. I'm thinking I might get some push back though!
For All You I/R Pitching Junkies........
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I'll run it by her PC. I'm thinking I might get some push back though!
- Jul 14, 2008
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IMO, there will definately be some velocity loss for female pitchers if the pitch is a straight push from the glove into the circle. I prefer a the glove on the throwing hip side with at least some rocker motion out of the glove and back behind the body. "Picking pitches" is impossible during the arm circle.
I've also found the pitchers who use similar grips for different pitches aren't really "tipping" their pitches regardless. If you take the ball back facing your body/wrist out, it's nearly impossible for the 3rd base coach to determine the seam configuration when the hand is in motion unless there is a distinct "pause" to start the circle.......
My pitchers for example use the same grip for rise, curve, screw and change and if a roll drop is used, it's the same also....Not sure how you're gonna "pick" one of those 5 pitches.....Nothing I like better then a "tip off" that dead wrong.........
The peel is held on 4 seams and except for an seeing an extremely raised index finger like rise, it's pretty tough to "pick" that pitch as well.......
So I personally am not SO concerned about the telegraphing IF good mechanics are employed.
The best female pitchers in the world don't seem to concerned either.
Ueno's mechanics for example, show a hide, then rocker, with the ball between the body and the third base coach with the wrist facing out on the backswing hiding the lace configuration.
Good luck picking this kid........
Bottom line, I've never been a fan of the straight "push out" or even just a "drop and go".........
I've also found the pitchers who use similar grips for different pitches aren't really "tipping" their pitches regardless. If you take the ball back facing your body/wrist out, it's nearly impossible for the 3rd base coach to determine the seam configuration when the hand is in motion unless there is a distinct "pause" to start the circle.......
My pitchers for example use the same grip for rise, curve, screw and change and if a roll drop is used, it's the same also....Not sure how you're gonna "pick" one of those 5 pitches.....Nothing I like better then a "tip off" that dead wrong.........
The peel is held on 4 seams and except for an seeing an extremely raised index finger like rise, it's pretty tough to "pick" that pitch as well.......
So I personally am not SO concerned about the telegraphing IF good mechanics are employed.
The best female pitchers in the world don't seem to concerned either.
Ueno's mechanics for example, show a hide, then rocker, with the ball between the body and the third base coach with the wrist facing out on the backswing hiding the lace configuration.
Good luck picking this kid........
Bottom line, I've never been a fan of the straight "push out" or even just a "drop and go".........
I have to agree with Boardmember. Video of the best female pitchers indicates that they don't 'rock the baby' by keeping the ball in the glove for the entire back swing. Scroll thru the video evidence at the top of this board and you'll see only one who does it and she is a step style thrower. Finch, Pauly, and Delaney don't even take the glove to the throwing arm side at all but rather choose to split their hands with their body leaving the ball 'naked.' Did they have success? One could argue that these athletes are exceptional. So are the lineups they face.
IMO, twisting to cradle the ball thru the downswing puts a lot of stress on the spine and is not optimal for leg drive at all. Swimmers don't contort the spine to push/dive off their pedestals. Sprinters don't twist and contort before pushing off the block. It seems very un-natural for a pitcher to do so. It seems like a recipe for long term poor spinal health (or worse) to teach a youngster to twist and then push off explosively....then repeat ad nauseum for years and years.
I'm neither a pro or an instructor, but the most 'natural' and healthy way for a youngster to throw seems to be to let the hands rock down to their respective sides of the body ala Finch. This way there is no twisting at all prior to exploding forward. I have heard the 'hiding the ball logic and it makes some sense. It seems a happy medium to treat the subject like Cat and Ueno do as evidenced in video. They bring the glove with the ball to the throwing side hip and then remove the ball/hand but still manage to conceal it pretty well. (Though concealing it at that point probably isn't really necessary as Boardmember points out above.) Angela Tincher threw this way when she no-hit Team USA so apparently hitters at the highest level weren't stealing any advantage by reading fingers/laces during the windup.
For my money, it just isn't worth cradling the ball in the glove and twisting to the throwing side on the backswing. The overblown possibility of tipping pitches is outweighed by the relative certainty of diminished leg drive and makes cradling not worthwhile IMO. The risk I perceive in having a younger girl repeat this un-natural mechanic makes it a no-no. Do I have evidence/data to back my assertions? No, I'm just trying to use that mass on top of my neck...plus taking Mark's advice to watch video of how the best (females) in the world do it. Perhaps Mark D or a sports med/ortho/kinesiology specialist could weigh in on my observation about twisting the spine and if it presents a risk or not. Sorry to stray off topic.
A Dad with a bucket and some bruises...nothing more, nothing less!
IMO, twisting to cradle the ball thru the downswing puts a lot of stress on the spine and is not optimal for leg drive at all. Swimmers don't contort the spine to push/dive off their pedestals. Sprinters don't twist and contort before pushing off the block. It seems very un-natural for a pitcher to do so. It seems like a recipe for long term poor spinal health (or worse) to teach a youngster to twist and then push off explosively....then repeat ad nauseum for years and years.
I'm neither a pro or an instructor, but the most 'natural' and healthy way for a youngster to throw seems to be to let the hands rock down to their respective sides of the body ala Finch. This way there is no twisting at all prior to exploding forward. I have heard the 'hiding the ball logic and it makes some sense. It seems a happy medium to treat the subject like Cat and Ueno do as evidenced in video. They bring the glove with the ball to the throwing side hip and then remove the ball/hand but still manage to conceal it pretty well. (Though concealing it at that point probably isn't really necessary as Boardmember points out above.) Angela Tincher threw this way when she no-hit Team USA so apparently hitters at the highest level weren't stealing any advantage by reading fingers/laces during the windup.
For my money, it just isn't worth cradling the ball in the glove and twisting to the throwing side on the backswing. The overblown possibility of tipping pitches is outweighed by the relative certainty of diminished leg drive and makes cradling not worthwhile IMO. The risk I perceive in having a younger girl repeat this un-natural mechanic makes it a no-no. Do I have evidence/data to back my assertions? No, I'm just trying to use that mass on top of my neck...plus taking Mark's advice to watch video of how the best (females) in the world do it. Perhaps Mark D or a sports med/ortho/kinesiology specialist could weigh in on my observation about twisting the spine and if it presents a risk or not. Sorry to stray off topic.
A Dad with a bucket and some bruises...nothing more, nothing less!
What we are talking about here is Pre Motion. You watch the college world series and almost every one of those girls has a different pre motion.The best in the world have different pre motions. I am having a difficult time understanding how turning the core of the upper shoulder complex to move the ball and glove to one side of the body has any kind of impact on the drive of the legs and the lower body. It would be no different than when a hitter strides forward and coils the core of the body by moving the hands back and loading the hips. Besides you dont have to turn very far to move the ball to the side. '
Diminished leg drive?
Men were doing this many generations before the ladies started playing and they dont seem to have any problem with leg drive using this motion. I might also point out that the men are the best in the world at pitching fastpitch softball. Not taking anything away from the female pitcher but you were the one that pointed out we should use what the best in the world do in softball.
Diminished leg drive?
Men were doing this many generations before the ladies started playing and they dont seem to have any problem with leg drive using this motion. I might also point out that the men are the best in the world at pitching fastpitch softball. Not taking anything away from the female pitcher but you were the one that pointed out we should use what the best in the world do in softball.
For my money, it just isn't worth cradling the ball in the glove and twisting to the throwing side on the backswing. The overblown possibility of tipping pitches is outweighed by the relative certainty of diminished leg drive and makes cradling not worthwhile IMO. The risk I perceive in having a younger girl repeat this un-natural mechanic makes it a no-no. Do I have evidence/data to back my assertions? No, I'm just trying to use that mass on top of my neck...plus taking Mark's advice to watch video of how the best (females) in the world do it. Perhaps Mark D or a sports med/ortho/kinesiology specialist could weigh in on my observation about twisting the spine and if it presents a risk or not. Sorry to stray off topic.
Must agree, the wear and tear on the SI joint with this movement could take it's toll on some pitchers, my DD struggled with lower back pain using this style. We changed it last fall and her back pain has disappeared. I know of various pitchers that cradle the ball on their back-swing, and it works fine with no complications. Every pitcher is different, what works for one doesn't work for another, this is where the parent must be smart enough to know when to change, most instructors teach their mechanics, and the student must adapt their body accordingly to their teaching. Most instructors will not adjust their teaching if issues arises with their students, this is where the parent must do what is best for their DD...strayed off topic, sorry.
Must agree, the wear and tear on the SI joint with this movement could take it's toll on some pitchers, my DD struggled with lower back pain using this style. We changed it last fall and her back pain has disappeared. I know of various pitchers that cradle the ball on their back-swing, and it works fine with no complications. Every pitcher is different, what works for one doesn't work for another, this is where the parent must be smart enough to know when to change, most instructors teach their mechanics, and the student must adapt their body accordingly to their teaching. Most instructors will not adjust their teaching if issues arises with their students, this is where the parent must do what is best for their DD...strayed off topic, sorry.
First of all, the idea that cradling the ball in the glove will cause back injuries is ridiculous. I don't think Hillhouse has any major issues there and I never heard of Michael White complaining about it either. Secondly, I can tell you first hand that swinging the ball back the way most girls do it does not add any velocity to the pitch and detracts from ball movement because the arm tends to get somewhat locked. I tried it years ago and it was a waste of time. This next statement will probably offend some on here, but in my experience girls aren't quite the students of the game as they could be. The men are looking for tips from the pitcher to pick pitches, see tendencies etc. If the women did more of that it would become an issue for the pitchers who give away pitches. Take away some of that singing and dancing on the bench and maybe they will focus on these kinds of things.
This cross pollination from the men's game can only be a good thing. During your discussions, keep in mind, it's my understanding men do not have to have both feet on the rubber to start. The few videos I've watched, Michael White comes to mind, look MUCH smoother than the women as a result I think. I would submit this is much more worrisome in terms of stress and repetitive use injuries for women than a little twisting from keeping the ball in the glove since, with both feet on the rubber, their start must be more explosive than it would have to be with one foot behind the rubber
Well, comparing women to men is ridicules, poor mechanics will develop injuries with women, where men will not have any issues. I also have talked with Hillhouse about this same subject, and with any repetitive and twisting motion could cause issues with the lower back. Saying it won't and using high level men pitchers as your reference is naive. Getting the most leg drive and explosion and using all this herky jerky twisting will take it's toll on the body. Women are not built the same as men. Women are prone to S.I. issues with there hips and pelvis being wider, this might have something to do with them bearing children. Physically comparing women to men...well you can do it to a certain point.
halskinner
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- May 7, 2008
- 2,637
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"First of all, the idea that cradling the ball in the glove will cause back injuries is ridiculous. I don't think Hillhouse has any major issues there and I never heard of Michael White complaining about it either. "
I agree. Everyone seems to have forgotten that you open the shoulders and hips once you start your forward drive. To cradle the ball you only open the shoulders what, 20 - 25 degrees or so? Big deal. You hold them at that level until the rest of you catches up and then all of you opens the rest of the way. It is not stressful from my experience either and I threw with a closed style.
"Secondly, I can tell you first hand that swinging the ball back the way most girls do it does not add any velocity to the pitch and detracts from ball movement because the arm tends to get somewhat locked. I tried it years ago and it was a waste of time. "
I could pitch with the double pimp wind up also. I didnt throw any faster, but, I didnt throw any slower either. All of my movement pitches worked just fine with the double pump.
"This next statement will probably offend some on here, but in my experience girls aren't quite the students of the game as they could be. The men are looking for tips from the pitcher to pick pitches, see tendencies etc. If the women did more of that it would become an issue for the pitchers who give away pitches. Take away some of that singing and dancing on the bench and maybe they will focus on these kinds of things."
If the male coaches of the young players would bother to teach them these things, the kids would love to learn it. I have taught young students to watch for many things in a pitcher's mechanics, grips, give away signs, etc. They LOVE spotting that stuff and quietly letting the rest of the team know what to look for. They look for every little edge they can get too. If someone will teach them, they will learn.
I agree. Everyone seems to have forgotten that you open the shoulders and hips once you start your forward drive. To cradle the ball you only open the shoulders what, 20 - 25 degrees or so? Big deal. You hold them at that level until the rest of you catches up and then all of you opens the rest of the way. It is not stressful from my experience either and I threw with a closed style.
"Secondly, I can tell you first hand that swinging the ball back the way most girls do it does not add any velocity to the pitch and detracts from ball movement because the arm tends to get somewhat locked. I tried it years ago and it was a waste of time. "
I could pitch with the double pimp wind up also. I didnt throw any faster, but, I didnt throw any slower either. All of my movement pitches worked just fine with the double pump.
"This next statement will probably offend some on here, but in my experience girls aren't quite the students of the game as they could be. The men are looking for tips from the pitcher to pick pitches, see tendencies etc. If the women did more of that it would become an issue for the pitchers who give away pitches. Take away some of that singing and dancing on the bench and maybe they will focus on these kinds of things."
If the male coaches of the young players would bother to teach them these things, the kids would love to learn it. I have taught young students to watch for many things in a pitcher's mechanics, grips, give away signs, etc. They LOVE spotting that stuff and quietly letting the rest of the team know what to look for. They look for every little edge they can get too. If someone will teach them, they will learn.
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