Face the Fire Drill adaptation question

[Dave D]

After reading and watching the clips on the face the fire drill thread a couple of weeks ago, I started incorporating the move into DD's tee work. She took to it immediately, and it has led to some of the best swings I've ever seen her make.

So, here's the thing: DD has a lot of trouble making the kind of fluid movement and forward move that the FTF drill enforces without the movement of the drill. I'm curious to hear from folks on this forum what they think about creating a swing that incorporates some triggering movement (especially the upper body rotation an putting hands in good takeaway position) that will do what the FTF drill does.

My niece hit her way to a D1 scholarship hitting from the left using a rhythmic step sequence that several of the UA slappers used to use, only she was a power hitter. She never really used it to slap, just to get her momentum going to the ball. I'm thinking about trying to get her feet moving in much the same way in the box from the right side. Does anyone out there have any experience doing anything like this, or have any advice or warnings?

Howard, I'm especially interested in hearing what you think of this. Is it worth the time?

 

[Hitter]

After reading and watching the clips on the face the fire drill thread a couple of weeks ago, I started incorporating the move into DD's tee work. She took to it immediately, and it has led to some of the best swings I've ever seen her make.

So, here's the thing: DD has a lot of trouble making the kind of fluid movement and forward move that the FTF drill enforces without the movement of the drill. I'm curious to hear from folks on this forum what they think about creating a swing that incorporates some triggering movement (especially the upper body rotation an putting hands in good takeaway position) that will do what the FTF drill does.

My niece hit her way to a D1 scholarship hitting from the left using a rhythmic step sequence that several of the UA slappers used to use, only she was a power hitter. She never really used it to slap, just to get her momentum going to the ball. I'm thinking about trying to get her feet moving in much the same way in the box from the right side. Does anyone out there have any experience doing anything like this, or have any advice or warnings?

Howard, I'm especially interested in hearing what you think of this. Is it worth the time?

Dave

When I was with the Chinese team we played the NPF teams and the Force had two girls who did a walking stride. They would time the swing and start walking forward from the back of the box and swing.

They did not shuffle their feet nor were they fancy, they just walked up and hit the ball.

I like the drill itself and use it especially for the younger ones to start the stride and stop the squishing and it helps introduce the legs which for some reason the guys take away when teaching them.

Most girls do not use their legs to throw so when teaching them how to hit we have to first teach them how to throw!

How this can be so mis understood is beyond my understanding especially when you hear about defense wins games! If that were true why isn't the soft community doing a better job teaching them how to throw the ball?

Thanks Howard

 

[Amy in AZ.]

why isn't the soft community doing a better job teaching them how to throw the ball?

Because 9 out of 10 of the coaches can't throw either and don't know how to teach it.

I teach the overhand throw to my pitching students, before they learn to pitch.

 

[tom.guerry]

I like this karaoke/step behind walkup drill fir understanding how throw is like swing.

this gives plenty of range of motion to synch up the cock and uncok of the bat with the footwork that is similar to winding up for overhand throw:

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I like this karaoke/step behind walkup drill fir understanding how throw is like swing.

this gives plenty of range of motion to synch up the cock and uncok of the bat with the footwork that is similar to winding up for overhand throw:

The tee is too far out front in this clip. That causes disconnection at the POC.

 

[tom.guerry]

tee opposite front foot when it's down is OK.

besides lack of lots trial and error at a very young age, fastpitch throwing is made more difficult by throwing a large ball and by confusion with windmill mechanics so that girls tend to use asymmetric arm action with an extended lead arm and less extended back arm. symmetric arm action without extending arms much beyond 90 degrees works better for larger/heavier ball anf for shorter quicker throws.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

tee opposite front foot when it's down is OK.

Which part of the front foot? The toes? The heel?

That's an important difference because in most cases that's the difference between hitting an inside pitch and an outside pitch.

 

[Wellphyt]

I like this karaoke/step behind walkup drill fir understanding how throw is like swing.

this gives plenty of range of motion to synch up the cock and uncok of the bat with the footwork that is similar to winding up for overhand throw:

Tom -- I like this drill also and use it with my DD. I call it the Happy Gilmore drill. I like karaoke better as the girls can relate to it better.

 

[Hitter]

Because 9 out of 10 of the coaches can't throw either and don't know how to teach it.

I teach the overhand throw to my pitching students, before they learn to pitch.

Amy

I scratch my head every time I see a girl throw like a girl and ask the coach the question, why have you not taught her how to throw like an athlete?

They just give me the dumb look like what do you mean?

Many male coaches do not feel there is enough differences in male verses female to even talk about it.

This is why the damage over time takes place and no single coach usually ever sees the damage they may have caused as it usually does not happen until they are in college.

Over usage for under hand pitching is one area, the ACL is next, and over hand throwing.

Just in over hand throwing they do not teach the female how to flex the knee to allow the weight to shift and it MUST be taught as the glutes fire in a male and do not for a female.

Just teaching a female how to land, jump and cut correctly helps them. The PEP program has shown the NCAA that ACL injuries can be reduced by 41 % in basketball and soccer and most college coaches and especially the high school coaches know nothing about it!

Over hand throwing, girls look awkward as the weight does not shift forward because they must learn to flex the knees so why would they do it for hitting either? Then they wonder why the look so upper body dominant!

Look at their arm slot and there is a term called carrying angle and we as male coaches have no clue as to what it is however many girls have a huge difference so we resort to what we know....here throw like this and watch me! Now do it like I do!

From the net...."When the arm is extended, with the palm facing forward or up, the bones of the humerus and forearm are not perfectly aligned. The deviation from a straight line occurs in the direction of the thumb, and is referred to as the “carrying angle.” The carrying angle permits the arm to be swung without contacting the hips. Women on average have smaller shoulders and wider hips than men, which may necessitate a greater carrying angle. There is, however, extensive overlap in the carrying angle between individual men and women, and a sex-bias has not been consistently observed in scientific studies [3] [4] [5].

The angle is greater in the dominant limb than the non-dominant limb of both sexes [6] [7], suggesting that natural forces acting on the elbow modify the carrying angle. Developmental [8], aging and possibly racial influences add further to the variability of this parameter. The carrying angle can influence how objects are held by individuals - those with a more extreme carrying angle may be more likely to pronate the forearm when holding objects in the hand to keep the elbow closer to the body."

For some of the girls I can not believe the difference and see why they look so awkward coming over their head with the ball. For some it looks no different at all.

Then we are talking about using the hips more for the girls to explode on the ball and get more power from the legs and hips when in my opinion their hamstrings are not even developed enough to support their knees and yet when we look at the male counter parts we are dealing with apples and oranges and yet we still try to act like there is no difference!

The basketball coaches are injuring our two sports girls at an alarming rate and it is usually after a jump shot they land awkwardly and pop it is gone! They tell them how to go up however forget when they land and how to land! They are doing very little to improve the strength in the hamstring muscles or teach them how to land, jump or cut correctly in my opinion.

From the net....Knee - The Patella
Women have wider hips than men, which creates a wider angle at the knee where the patella articulates with the femur. (figure 1). This increased angle (often called the Q angle) affects the tracking of the patella and predisposes the female athlete to tracking problems. Abnormal tracking of the patella may lead to instability, or dislocation of the patella, or simply cause pain due to unbalanced loading of the joint. Think of this as a tire out of alignment in which unbalanced loads lead to the treads wearing out of one side of the tire. A similar phenomenon occurs under the knee cap. The female athlete should emphasize strengthening exercises that help to stabilize the patella to help improve tracking and prevent injury. These exercises should focus on the inner quadriceps muscles (Vastus medialis oblique or VMO). For those who fail to respond to conservative measures, new arthroscopic techniques are available to realign the patella.
The ACL The female athlete seems to be disproportionately at risk for injury to the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL). There are several theories for this. For one, females tend to have a narrower space in the knee available for this ligament, so that less stress is required to tear the ligament than in the male athlete (figure 2). A recent study has also shown that female athletes tend to rely on their quadriceps more than their hamstrings compared to their male counterparts. Since the hamstring muscles are one of the main protectors of the ACL, relative weakness in this structure may lead to ACL injuries. Additional risk of injury is related to estrogen levels. Female athletes tend to sustain injury to their ACL during the ovulatory period of their menstrual cycle (day 10-14). This is the period when estrogen levels are the highest. Researchers have shown that the ACL contains estrogen receptors and that the ACL responds to estrogen by decreasing cell activity and synthesis of the basic ligament fibers (collagen)."


As to throwing and the shoulder from the net...."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941294/
Shoulder injuries are another primary area of preventive concern for collegiate softball players. Although the results do not specify the number of shoulder injuries that can be categorized as chronic or overuse, shoulder strains and shoulder tendinitis were common chronic/overuse injuries that accounted for almost 10% of practice injuries ( Table 5). Furthermore, 5.5% of practice injuries resulting in 10+ days of activity time loss were attributable to shoulder tendinitis ( Table 6). A common misconception is that the windmill motion of softball pitching creates less stress on the arm than the overhead motion of baseball pitching does. However, the degree of shoulder distraction stress on elite softball pitchers during the 1996 Olympic Games averaged 80% ± 22% of their body weight (range = 50% to 149%), which is comparable to that of professional baseball players (mean = 108% ± 16% body weight, range = 83% to 139% body weight) and may put softball pitchers at risk for overuse injury. 14, 15 When 181 NCAA female pitchers were surveyed, 25% of their injuries were categorized as chronic/overuse shoulder injuries. 6 Pitch counts need to be more of a priority for coaches, pitchers, and certified athletic trainers, with an emphasis on the quality versus the quantity of pitches during practice. 6 Furthermore, position-specific interval throwing programs have been designed based on NCAA softball game data, field dimensions, common softball injuries, and general tissue-healing concepts. 16 These programs are not only important for rehabilitation but also may be a beneficial component of the conditioning regimens for all position players. 16
Finish First Insider, Issue #78

"Let’s take a closer look at the shoulder and the rate of injury.
According to Meyers, 38% of all upper extremity injuries are specific to the shoulder in softball. When compared to the number of other injuries, shoulder injuries are currently the number one upper extremity injuries in softball. On that note, some sports media have claimed (anecdotal) that the fast pitch motion (underhand pitch) in softball is safer on the shoulder joint (than overhand). However, the research suggests that under- and over- hand throwing both add similar stress to the shoulder. (1,2,4) Nevertheless the majority of the stress for over hand throwing is in the deceleration movement (release portion of the throw) which puts the most stress on soft tissues and connective tissues involved in external rotation of the shoulder.(4)
In underhand throwing the majority of stress is in acceleration movement (windup of windmill pitching) and internal rotation.(4) Other interesting research involved the notion that softball players may be predisposed to injury due to the decreased joint position (flexibility) of the shoulder joint during external rotation. (1)

In my opinion you can look at all of the MLB Elite Patterns in the swing you want and until you teach the girls how to throw and what it means to shift your weight they are an accident waiting to happen unless they are being trained how to condition properly. Many of our girls go to certified trainers for conditioning and consider it as an investme"nt for not getting hurt while having fun!

Many of the parents are finally challenging the coaches and trainers about conditioning and also giving them copies on the PEP program from Santa Monica Sports Med. Just Google it and down load it as it is free!

Thanks Howard