drag and hand activation

[RayR]

I'm not sure I know what you mean - I edited my post to add it is simply an Elvis move that will tip the board without lunging.

The knee has to bend in and towards the 2nd basemen. This is after toe touch. The board simply trains a hitter to shift and turn the hips.

MTS ... curious if what you describe as the back knee supporting the shift could be translated to coil tension not being leaked prior to the shift?

 

[RayR]

OK - I thought that.

Check out the front elbow and compare hers to Dena Tyson. I bet on a front toss ball the swing wouldn't have so much loop.

In the frame before contact, and at contact, the barrel falls down out of the plane set by the front elbow.

Up to this point, I agree that she's quite good.

Some of this could be due to the fact that she seems to push her hands forward and up through the POC (as some kids do in the case of bat drag, but she doesn't have any bat drag).

I'd be interested in what she looks like when does BHUT off of a tee.

But, and like I said, I have seen that pattern over and over again when people try to launch from the BHUT position.

That is why no pro launches from the BHUT position, but instead starts laying the bat down into plane with a running start.

 

[RayR]

Yes. I want them to feel the legs working. Talking about the core is confusing for most of them/us. They "feel" it in the legs and lower back. I talk about getting into our legs. If the legs work better - the hands can just throw the barrel to the ball and we leave out trying to power the swing with the shoulders. Kids confuse core and shoulders.

I was trying to say this earlier when I said that posture would help fix bat drag

You think this drill fixed the drag? Thats been my humble theory, when they feel the power in the core, they will instinctively know how apply it. Young hitters anyway, until they feel it they will try to use the arms too much. And probably as Chris says get "back hand dominate" and drag the bat.

Anybody else use this drill?

 

[Chris O'Leary]

OK - I thought that.

Check out the front elbow and compare hers to Dena Tyson. I bet on a front toss ball the swing wouldn't have so much loop.

Tyson goes from a much flatter bat position. In fact, she's basically on plane to start, so this is really comparing apples and oranges.

I also like Tyson's launch position better, and teach it, because it requires much less effort to get to the high pitch.

BHUT requires much greater torques on the barrel which most people (including, like I said, a male D-1 college baseball player) can't manage.

In part, that's because you are fighting physics and gravity.

 

[redzuk]

Yes. I want them to feel the legs working. Talking about the core is confusing for most of them/us. They "feel" it in the legs and lower back. I talk about getting into our legs. If the legs work better - the hands can just throw the barrel to the ball and we leave out trying to power the swing with the shoulders. Kids confuse core and shoulders.

I was trying to say this earlier when I said that posture would help fix bat drag

Not to pick on you, but what didnt you like about the deltoid drill? Cause the more I look at your bucket drill clip the more it looks similar to the deltoid drill. The hands start up, but the position just after "connection" looks very close.

 

[RayR]

So maybe something more like this. Hooks is on plane at the start to hit a much lower pitch.

However you want to spin it - the front arm bend and front elbow path are crucial to making adjustments. Lose the front arm and the swing becomes too armsy/handsy - and shouldery.

Tyson goes from a much flatter bat position. In fact, she's basically on plane to start, so this is really comparing apples and oranges.

I also like Tyson's launch position better, and teach it, because it requires much less effort to get to the high pitch.

BHUT requires much greater torques on the barrel which most people (including, like I said, a male D-1 college baseball player) can't manage.

In part, that's because you are fighting physics and gravity.

 

[RayR]

I just don't like the idea of suppressing the hands. I don't believe that a good swing is about keeping the hands near the rear shoulder and turning. Too many experiences with turning past the ball and hitting off the end of the bat. Not in the hitting zone long enough. No extension. It is a dead end - meaning it looks promising and then you gotta turn around and take another route.

It has been said that if you turn and keep the hands close to the rear shoulder the hands will fly off at the right time. This is a pipe dream based on a machine called the iron byron. The difference is the machine has a pin that allows the club to fly off at the right time and a human locks up and turns past (doesn't fly off)

The hands know how to direct the bat (or should). Bad swings consist of relying on the shoulders to turn and either they forget the hands or fuse them to the turn. Or they get taught to extend the front arm too soon (ever see that grand ole drill of knocking the ball off the tee with the knob?)

The bucket drill looks like the deltoid drill because she is learning to power the swing with the lower half and pushing her hands out to the pitcher to get into the zone quicker.

People get fooled by 2 dimensional side views that look like the hands and rear shoulder are traveling together. The hands make their move and turn the shoulders and then head off to the correct path to make contact.

Here is Hooks from A&M hand path for a high pitch

Here is Sam Marder's hand path for a low inside pitch

Here is Megan Coletta's hand path for an outside pitch

Really watch the hands and ask yourself if they are staying near the rear shoulder or just passing by.

Not to pick on you, but what didnt you like about the deltoid drill? Cause the more I look at your bucket drill clip the more it looks similar to the deltoid drill. The hands start up, but the position just after "connection" looks very close.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I just don't like the idea of suppressing the hands. I don't believe that a good swing is about keeping the hands near the rear shoulder and turning. Too many experiences with turning past the ball and hitting off the end of the bat. Not in the hitting zone long enough. No extension. It is a dead end - meaning it looks promising and then you gotta turn around and take another route.

It has been said that if you turn and keep the hands close to the rear shoulder the hands will fly off at the right time. This is a pipe dream based on a machine called the iron byron. The difference is the machine has a pin that allows the club to fly off at the right time and a human locks up and turns past (doesn't fly off)

The hands know how to direct the bat (or should). Bad swings consist of relying on the shoulders to turn and either they forget the hands or fuse them to the turn. Or they get taught to extend the front arm too soon (ever see that grand ole drill of knocking the ball off the tee with the knob?)

The bucket drill looks like the deltoid drill because she is learning to power the swing with the lower half and pushing her hands out to the pitcher to get into the zone quicker.

People get fooled by 2 dimensional side views that look like the hands and rear shoulder are traveling together. The hands make their move and turn the shoulders and then head off to the correct path to make contact.

Here is Hooks from A&M hand path for a high pitch

Here is Sam Marder's hand path for a low inside pitch

Really watch the hands and ask yourself if they are staying near the rear shoulder or just passing by.

Suppressing the hands is indeed a bad idea.

That said, swinging with the arms isn't the intent either ... and I believe you agree with that.

Here are the hitters in your post shown at 'launch' and 'contact'. The question is, has the relationship/distance between the 'hands' and 'rear shoulder' changed significantly from 'launch' to 'contact'?

p.s.
Had to cut out one of your clips due to limitation of 4 videos per post.

 

[Ken Krause]

I'm not so sure it needs to be quite so black and white. It's difficult to assign cause and effect when you're basing the decision on video because as has been said many times we all see the same things differently.

What I see in the kids I work with who have bat drag issues is they tend to extend their hands back, and when they go into rotation they leave them back. Yet they know something should be going forward, so they pull the elbow since it's pretty easy to swing that down even when everything else stays in place. As a result, I do believe you need to see the hands stay in front of the rear shoulder. I tell my players and students the hands should be tied to the shoulder, because it's easy to see whether that has occurred, and it's a relatively easy instruction to follow.

But that doesn't mean the hands are dead. For the stretch position I like the hands to tilt the bat so the knob is pointing more at the catcher and less at the ground. That creates the "live and independent hands" Slaught talks about. They're not dead in space, they're moving. There's usually a little rear elbow lift too. Not the "get your back elbow up" stuff, but a more natural movement. As the hips and then shoulders rotate, the hands are going to have to move forward to keep up with the shoulder. So whether you call it tying the hands to the shoulder or moving the hands forward, that movement is taking place.

The big movement, then, comes after most of the shoulder rotation. They've been on the train, as FFS says. Now it's time to get off the train and launch them under their own power.

I do want to throw another idea into the mix. It's something I've theorized as being logical, but won't say I'm committed to 100%. I believe the large musculature of MLB hitters, and adult male athletes in general, may help prevent the rear elbow from getting ahead of the hands naturally.

Even before I got fat, I had a pretty good upper body build, with broad shoulders and chest, and decent sized arms. Being fat exaggerates some of that. Anyway, when I try to explain to a girl that she has bat drag I usually try to demonstrate it. I have a really tough time getting into the positions they get into, especially the dreaded both elbows pointing at the pitcher, because my build and lack of flexibility prevent it.

So now take it the other way. Pre-pubescent boys and girls, as well as post-pubescent girls, don't have that muscle structure to "get in the way" so they are able to pull the back elbow past the hands pretty easily. It probably feels strong to them too. Could it be that a contributing factor to the elbow getting in front of the hands is because it can? And perhaps the reason you don't see a lot of it at the higher levels of baseball, where they have access to some pretty awesome training and equipment, is because it can't?

 

[RayR]

Ken, I agree it can be a chicken or the egg type of conversation. I base my beliefs on locking the hands up and turning past. Have seen numerous kids go from bat drag to turning past and while they hit the crap out of a ball on a tee - they look silly trying to hit an outside pitch or if they are early hit a ball down the middle off the end of the bat.

And yes - us wider guys don't have the elbow problem - lol.

I just have a hard time believing that Sam Marder is relying on her shoulders to move that way. The difference between the Hooks and Marder swing is hand path. The shoulders adjust to the hand path, IMHO...