drag and hand activation

[redzuk]

Hope the mods dont mind. If everyone can be civil. That discussion on drag was getting interesting. I think its important, I have seen kids where it just clicked at a young age for some reason and they never lost it, despite really terrible coaching and hitting instruction. They did what felt right regardless of what they thought they were doing or what they were being told to do. I unfortunately dont know what did it for the kid i'm talking about, she went to a two day high school camp when she was about 10 and the swing was changed forever. I suspect it could have been something simple like the deltoid drill.

from FFS
"The deltoid drill is about learning to use the lower body and core to serve as the main engine. As simplistic as that objective may seem, it needs to be taught ... as many kids can develop a bad habit of using their arms to power their swing. That is, they become dependent on using a much weaker engine to power their swing. So we use drills, like the deltoid drill, to temporarily take the arms out of the equation so that the hitter can learn the feel of their primary engine."

I wouldnt disagree with that. When they feel what its like to use the core then bat drag might just go away. It could be that simple.

I wouldnt look to hand activation to fix this drag, I have an open mind though. If you could be specific and say what this kid should do different with his hands to change the barrel path and fix the barrel dump. I see the sequence as elbow getting in front of hands because he's trying to get too much power from his arms, results in barrel dump.

How far do you take "bat drag". Do you see it in this swing? Some say they do

Could this be a swing that people are seeing the need for some change in hand activation? It looks good to me, but maybe it could be even better.

I like FFS post about the lazy L
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/sof...62-rear-hip-isolation-resistance-drill-6.html
Would you use a hand path or activation drill to fix this? I can see where the lazy L leads to barrel dumping drag.

So when should the hands activate, how do you teach it?

Considering kids in their first or second year do you have a better way to get them to understand how to get power from the core. I know many say teach them how to throw, thats good but I dont think enough. I've read Howards post's and thats good stuff, but if I tried to teach it I would just confuse the poor kid. I'm not sure I could accomplish what CO did with the deltoid drill, I would be happy with the results if I could.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I suspect it could have been something simple like the deltoid drill.

This wouldn't surprise me, especially if she also happened to get strong enough.

Understanding the Vertical V/RVP Connection Point helped my son (as did a big helping a weightlifting).

"The deltoid drill is about learning to use the lower body and core to serve as the main engine. As simplistic as that objective may seem, it needs to be taught ... as many kids can develop a bad habit of using their arms to power their swing. That is, they become dependent on using a much weaker engine to power their swing. So we use drills, like the deltoid drill, to temporarily take the arms out of the equation so that the hitter can learn the feel of their primary engine."

As I have said, this is true.

The normal progression for a swing is...

1. All arms.
2. Arms with some hips. Could be top or bottom arm driven, but it's still top-down and arm-y.
3. Core driven.

However, most kids never get to phase 3 or get there too late in order to make it to HS ball.

I wouldnt look to hand activation to fix this drag

IMO, hand activation is not the right answer, because it's trying to get power from the hands and not the core.

That's why this kid, who was taught hand activation, still has bat drag (and dumps the barrel to boot).

I do think the hands have a role to play, but it's to ensure that the barrel turns with the shoulders until it's time for them to release the barrel.

The thing that turns the shoulders is the core.

 

[RayR]

The hands role is to move the barrel to contact. You get bat drag when the shoulders start turning and the hands are left behind either because they drop, flatten or are still moving back when the shoulders start turning. The give away is the front elbow losing its bend.

Side views are misleading because the front elbow will look to straighten/bar, but it is really the front arm elevating into the shoulder plane and skewing the angle you are looking from.

But, the hands and shoulders are not fused (like the deltoid drill). The hands moving the bat in a positive direction is what actually gets the shoulders rotating. Up until then the shoulders are laterally tilting. This is being taught as a front elbow drive, but I think that this is not a complete answer.

The elbow drive is good for inside locations, but not on every pitch. As long as the hands move forward before the shoulders start rotating you will avoid bat drag.

Fusing the hands to the rear shoulder can lead to dead hands and turning past the ball.

The tight "V" is a nice check point, but if used a queue can promote bat drag (relying on the shoulders to bring the hands/barrel around).

 

[Chris O'Leary]

The hands role is to move the barrel to contact. You get bat drag when the shoulders start turning and the hands are left behind either because they drop, flatten or are still moving back when the shoulders start turning. The give away is the front elbow losing its bend.

Actually the role of the hands -- and really we're talking about the arms -- is to maintain the position of the hands relative to the back shoulder. You don't want the hands to get too far behind, or ahead of, the rotation of the shoulders.

The hands moving the bat in a positive direction is what actually gets the shoulders rotating.

I have heard people say this before, but it clearly confuses cause and effect. The hips turn the shoulders, which turns the hands.

Maybe it works as a cue, but it's not reality.

As long as the hands move forward before the shoulders start rotating you will avoid bat drag.

This isn't a panacea.

You could very easily end up with a push disconnection.

As I said, the hands have to turn with the back shoulder, and not too far behind of, or too far ahead of, the back shoulder.

Fusing the hands to the rear shoulder can lead to dead hands and turning past the ball.

I don't know of anyone who advocates that.

 

[RayR]

Actually the role of the hands -- and really we're talking about the arms -- is to maintain the position of the hands relative to the back shoulder. You don't want the hands to get too far behind, or ahead of, the rotation of the shoulders.

The role of the hands is to guide the bat, not to maintain position relative to the shoulder.

I have heard people say this before, but it clearly confuses cause and effect. The hips turn the shoulders, which turns the hands.

Really? Once the hands move forward and the elbow remains bent the front shoulder drives back. Up until then shoulder movement is lateral.

Here look for yourself.

I don't know of anyone who advocates that.

Deltoid drill does this very thing

 

[RayR]

Why do the shoulders rotate more on an inside pitch? Is it because the hands via the bent front arm are driving the front shoulder back to release on an inside pitch OR is it the shoulders rotating more and dragging the hands around?

 

[Chris O'Leary]

The role of the hands is to guide the bat, not to maintain position relative to the shoulder.

They do both.

Really? Once the hands move forward and the elbow remains bent the front shoulder drives back. Up until then shoulder movement is lateral.

Lateral tilt is tilt back toward the catcher.

The hands move forward with the rotation of the shoulders.

This is especially apparent in Frame 6 and Frame 7.

Deltoid drill does this very thing

The deltoid drill is a drill that is designed to work on one specific thing.

Driving the swing with the core.

However, there's no point in working on adjustability if you aren't getting power from the right place.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Why do the shoulders rotate more on an inside pitch? Is it because the hands via the bent front arm are driving the front shoulder back to release on an inside pitch OR is it the shoulders rotating more and dragging the hands around?

Since the back shoulder is behind the hands, it can't drag the hands around.

In truth, the shoulders rotate to deliver the hands to the right neighborhood, and the hands then make last-second, minute adjustments.

 

[Ken Krause]

I agree this is a good topic for civil discussion. I don't want to see any of the nonsense that caused me to close the last one. Keep it technical, not personal. And offer advice, not just automatic gainsaying of what someone you don't like posts.

 

[softballphreak]

Visualize a punching bag being the ball (point of contact). That will make it easy to see AND feel what the hands and shoulders do.

As far as bat drag, I have the player swing in slow motion and I physically move the offending elbow to the position I want them to have it. This creates the vertical top forearm behind the hand that I want them to have. Then it's just a matter of them concentrating on doing it until it becomes a habit.

As I've said before I believe bat drag is mostly caused by a bat that is too heavy. Working with a bat that is too light may help them overcome the tendency to try to pull the bat (bat drag) through the zone.

The punching bag is an excellent target when working on bat drag.