Dr. Sherry Werner - Biomechanical engineer specializing in pitching movement

[starsnuffer]

Lisa Fernandez, Michelle Smith, Michele Granger. Great, great pitchers in their time. Not sure if a lot of their mechanics would be modeled today.

-W

 

[halskinner]

Willy,

please dont take offense at this. But, you should never sacrifice player safety/ possible inury for a little more performance. I have to assume that one of the biggest reasons they made this study is because many instructors WOULD teach injurious mechanics in the name of trying to attain more speed / performance.

It was 1996 and, obviously, technology is better now. However, they did note that the equipment used was basically the highest technology available at that time. The minds reviewing the data were the best and most knowledgeable in their field. I would thoroughly expect that if the exact same study was done with todays equipment, the findings would not be different. That report outlined the safest pitching mechanics of the absolute best pitchers in the world at that time.

If they did do that study again today, some of the methods and mechanics widely taught now might get a huge thumbs down, or possibly not.

I can see no reason to make the original videos available to anyone. The best you could expect is praise from those teaching what is on them and condemnation from those teaching differently. AT BEST, you would have a whole lot of personal opinions from people nowhere near as qualified as the ones named in that report.

W,

I see no reason why the pitchers you mentioned should not STILL be considered 'Elite pitchers' and still be modeled / emulated today.

I have seen those pitchers do a few things I dont agree with but I do agree with almost all of it. The elite pitchers today, I see the exact same thing, a few things I dont agree with and many thing I do agree with. Now you have one other persons opinion who is nowhere near as qualified as Dr. Werner and the others in that report.

I was pleased as punch when the report came out and I frst saw it in 1992, I think. It detailed everything I taught with one exception. I always thought the perfect landing foot angle was 45 degrees and that is what I had alway strived for. According to the report, going by memory here, that should be 52 degrees. So, I was off a few degrees. Since I could not distinguish 45 or 52 degrees exactly, watching my students, as long as they were as close to that angle as possible, I was happy with that.

I am also proud to say that I never had a student complain of any injury due to how they pitched from what I taught them. There are probably not many instructors that can honestly say that. If Doug Finch taught those same mechanics, he might be one that can make that same statement.

That report still stands tall as the outline for what are safe pitching mechanics. Any mechanics different from those should be considered questionable.

Again, just one old pitcher's opinion here.

 

[BoardMember]

I personally had never even heard of the S/H report until some blow hard starting harping about it when I first joined here.......

And since we're using the report to talk about how great we are.........I've never had an injury caused from the pitching mechanics I teach in over 25 years and literally hundred upon hundreds of students..........Including ALL the pitchers who've gone on to pitch from D-1 through NAIA and Juco.........And these are kids I've actually worked with in person for many months/years........Not becuase I wrote a book that they skimmed through.......

Willy........If you looking for a study that actually analyzes the mechanics of high level fastpitch pitchers, and the how/what makes it all work, I suggest you READ THIS REPORT by Dr. Marion J.L. Alexander, PhD.

Her background includes:
PhD in Biomechanics - University of Alberta
Masters in Science, Physical Education, Kinesiology - University of Washington
Bachelor of Physical Education - University of British Columbia

She is also the Director of the Biomechanics, Sport and Human Performance Laboratory and the Head of the Sport and Human Performance Research Group. I believe she is AS, if not MORE qualified then Dr. Werner on this subject.

Her research is a culmination of studies (including S/H Report) from TONS of research papers on the fastpitch motion, along with her own observations/conclusions........

And don't miss the section on "Arm Rotations".........It's pretty awesome, and goes into SO MUCH MORE DETAIL then the S/H report.........

Enjoy!

 

[Greenmonsters]

The best minds in the world at one time thought that the earth was flat. It's a good thing that some questioned those experts' findings or else softball would only be played in Europe today.

 

[halskinner]

The finest medical minds at the time reviewing God knowsw how many hours of high speed videos to for their conclusions and put that report together. The cameras dont lie.

The report by Dr. Alexander is of her 'observations' of what pitchers do. Where did she make her observations from? The bleachers? I'm asking because you did not say. Did she use high speed v ideos to rercord those observations?

Pitching isnt just arm motion.

 

[WillyT812]

Thanks guys, no offense taken from anyone. Lots of strong opinions conversing on a subject matter that, frankly, has some wiggle room on what is the ideal form or method. This is why some of these threads can get a little contentious at time. When you combine the strong egos/opinion with a loose subject matter and the fact that words typed on a screen aren't the best form of communication... of course sparks will often fly. So many people in life are bottle rockets while there seems to be an equal amount of people walking around who are matches looking for those bottle rockets...I'm neither I believe. I accept these constraints and conditions while on my quest to be the best PC I can be.

BM, I'll read the report you posted a link to. Like you, the only thing I knew and know safety wise was landing the stride foot at 45 degree angle. Some girls knees can't even take that, very few mind you but I'm sure across the country there are a few. Would I start teaching my girls to land their stride food pointing at the catcher so to minimize stress on the knee as little as possible? No, and neither would you. If a girl's knee can't handle the stress of landing at 45 then we'll make a short stop out of her or something. That was my only point. I can never have enough HIGH SPEED video to look at of elite pitchers, present and of yesteryear. If the report had mentioned just video I wouldn't have even cared, but they said HIGH SPEED. There is very little high speed video available to us to look over. That is why I want it and no other reason.

StarSnuffer. How right on you are. I looked at some video of Lisa F pitching and thought...yuck. But who can argue with her results? There seems to be a lot of ways to get outs, some better than others, some prettier than others. We can often get caught up in the smallest details while missing the big picture. Not just in pitching, hitting discussions are much the same.

 

[Perfect Circle]

BM, I'll read the report you posted a link to. Like you, the only thing I knew and know safety wise was landing the stride foot at 45 degree angle.

I read the report 3 years ago...(not all of it...nobody reads all of every thing...especially health concerns ...not even my Senator...lol) But I was alerted to the awareness of safety unique to pitchers....Of course DD started out wanting to be like the big girls that had the prettiest uniforms, bat bags ect.... I'm not seeing the linkage of being the best, then conceding not understanding safety??? I think I have understood this board, and can get maybe a 30% agreement on going to a SPT at first sign of pains Alert. After DD's first season of pitching (coming out from all the padding of catching) @ 9....(and remember she was not allowed to ride her bike on our very low traffic street back then)......just 2 innings a game, double pumping, the stretch into swimming & leg slapping serpent toe dragging...Style...& very little practice...(ignorant safety)...But I went shopping for KIS. Once arriving at what I thought...I simply had a SPT make the final decision....pre-problem. Before the (10,000 ???) practice perfect reps. Used the hitting time needed to make myelin with a ZipLine...not so much for the hitting, although it worked better than a Tee...I had her pitch to me with it, and learn to save..wave a drop... wiggle a curve...basicly out smart the hitter....FUN...but to most importantly save her knuckles...

....The thing that I find absent in safety is taught foremost in the concept of finishing in a position to field the ball...as "the Priority" I simply think that its easier to go down with the hands (rt w/ G), or even miss the grounders, that 2nd and SS can stay motivated with, than concede a line drive over the bag @ 2nd, and to-be really ready for the ones that can't clear the pitchers head ...yet. I went with staying open as a measure of being less of a Target...The need to blow it past the batter, is but a defensive measure, that starts with un-controllable speed...and the better them than you getting hit copeinsituation. I posted a video of DD's first game pitching... it shows not only a ball breaking ??? 12-24 inches on both planes, her wild interpretation of the style seen of the (JMHO) two best.. 2 pitchers in the WCWS that year... as example of a camera I was using...sub 60fpm to slo-mo (for the other threads)....witch buy the way can be done in the processing software, with whatever frames you have to work with. I slowed and stopped the ball to show my golden rule of my Daddy Balling PCing...."Gotta Keep Your Hands Up....whoooooaaa" cause ''thats what the fox sayes....ehha haa nnnoottthead"

 

[starsnuffer]

StarSnuffer. How right on you are. I looked at some video of Lisa F pitching and thought...yuck. But who can argue with her results? There seems to be a lot of ways to get outs, some better than others, some prettier than others. We can often get caught up in the smallest details while missing the big picture. Not just in pitching, hitting discussions are much the same.

Exactly. You work with what you have, and do the best that you are able to do. Being an athlete means that one is a human constantly striving for perfection but never ever achieving it. It's always a neverending journey, but the competitor rises up to every contest and challenge and does the best that they are able to do at the time of the competition. This is what is important to understand as an instructor, coach, and teacher. It's our job to guide the students on the path to "perfect" mechanics, but understand that they have short term goals and competitions that they want to excel in and win along the way. We do our best with what we have at the time.

-W

 

[Rick Pauly]

I am going to steal part of a post StarSnuffer put up on another thread and apply it here....I think he hit the nail on the head.

"We're still in the refining and experimenting stages, if you want to know my honest opinion on the matter. Sure, we all have "what we believe is the best currently", but you, or I, or anyone else is a fool if we think that we've learned all that we can, or even close to it."

In the report by Dr. Alexander that BM notes....if you read it thoroughly you may question several of her statements....I know I did.
But if you understand that she is conveying her observations of pitchers from 15--20 years ago or studies by others (Werner,et all) of pitchers 15-20 years ago, it is obvious that some things have changed.....speeds and stride length are two that immediately come into question. If asked "has Dr. Alexander identified most of the common bio-mechanical movements that elite pitchers perform"....I'd say yes.....I find it interesting regarding the ranges she states on some of the measurements...fairly large ranges and yet these are from elite pitchers of that era.
Wonder how she would word her study if rewritten today.....wonder what it would look like 20 years from now.

Definitely a good study from that time period and an very accurate statement by SS.

I personally had never even heard of the S/H report until some blow hard starting harping about it when I first joined here.......

And since we're using the report to talk about how great we are.........I've never had an injury caused from the pitching mechanics I teach in over 25 years and literally hundred upon hundreds of students..........Including ALL the pitchers who've gone on to pitch from D-1 through NAIA and Juco.........And these are kids I've actually worked with in person for many months/years........Not becuase I wrote a book that they skimmed through.......

Willy........If you looking for a study that actually analyzes the mechanics of high level fastpitch pitchers, and the how/what makes it all work, I suggest you READ THIS REPORT by Dr. Marion J.L. Alexander, PhD.

Her background includes:
PhD in Biomechanics - University of Alberta
Masters in Science, Physical Education, Kinesiology - University of Washington
Bachelor of Physical Education - University of British Columbia

She is also the Director of the Biomechanics, Sport and Human Performance Laboratory and the Head of the Sport and Human Performance Research Group. I believe she is AS, if not MORE qualified then Dr. Werner on this subject.

Her research is a culmination of studies (including S/H Report) from TONS of research papers on the fastpitch motion, along with her own observations/conclusions........

And don't miss the section on "Arm Rotations".........It's pretty awesome, and goes into SO MUCH MORE DETAIL then the S/H report.........

Enjoy!

 

[WillyT812]

For StarSnuffer

You don't go to war with the troops you want, you go to war with the troops you have...Donald Rumsfeld.

You don't enter a tournament with the players you want, you enter the tournament with the players you have....Willyt812