DD Bat Drag ?

[batdragon]

Great news. Not trying to be a downer but tell her to wipe the smile off of her face and get back to work.

I would not be so anxious to move to front toss or any kind of toss from her normal stance. Do not give her any reason to go back to her old swing. Stay on the tee, keep doing the knee drills and I would add in a fence drill with a tee. Once she forgets what her old swing feels like I would start doing some front toss stuff from her normal stance but a limited amount.

Good Luck

Thanks HYP. I agree. I am not trying to rush the process. I almost wasn't going to let her bat in practice but she wanted to and her tee work seemed to carry over to her BP which was cool to see for both of us and showed her what we were doing was paying off.

I like the fence drill concept to keep her bat path short to the ball but possibly somewhat modify it using the punching back instead. I was also thinking of positioning the punching back behind the plate , basically at the back foot and continue doing deep tee work (back hip, bellybutton, front hip). The punching bag location combined with the deep tee location really seems as if it would restrict her to only one possible bat path that would allow her to hit the ball and drive it.

Also, I would use the punching bag in the same position when ready to move on to soft/front toss. On soft toss I can toss the ball deeper (most likely tossing from behind as suggested), which will keep her swing short. With front toss, the bag location will help restrict a long swing somewhat, but she has to have the discipline of letting the ball get deeper into the zone. I probably will only do front tosses on the outside part of the plate and have her hit oppo for a bit. Then start mixing in pitches outside (rf), middle (cf), outside (rf), middle (cf), outside (rf), middle (cf)...etc. Eventually I can work in the inside toss and have her pull to (lf). Hopefully this makes sense...

 

[theaddition]

TA ... if you are trying to make the case that I'm advocating "bopping the catcher in the head", then nix that notion completely.

You simply do not bring the hands forward with a notion of pulling/dragging/pushing the barrel with the top hand ... but turning the barrel with the top hand. From my perspective that is why Donny advocated a pronated top hand. Not to bop the catcher in the head, but to turn the barrel.

As for the movement pertaining to the beginning motion of the barrel's arc ... I've already described that ... and the description was good enough that RDB followed up with a video immediately after the post ... suggesting to me that he grasped the notion.

It's all about the timing of the top hand supination, IMHO.
You've been posting so long on website that you now have a built in paranoia and a built in defensive response mechanism.
You are too worried about my perception of what you think/teach?. I think they call that "saving face".

F it, I am done.

 

[jbooth]

It's all about the timing of the top hand supination, IMHO.
You've been posting so long on website that you now have a built in paranoia and a built in defensive response mechanism.
You are too worried about my perception of what you think/teach?. I think they call that "saving face".

F it, I am done.

In reading your dialog with FiveFrameSwing, it seems you have done the same. I saw nothing from you about your belief, and he asked you.

You now say it's about timing of top hand supination. There is very little top hand supination in an MLB swing. You say you're an engineer. Then you should be able to see that the top palm turning up is mostly from an overall change in geometry of the shoulders, arms and spine, that makes the palm turn up. The main bio-mechanical action is ulnar deviation. Not, supination.

Any supination that you see, is from the forearm being supinated by barrel force already in motion, not from a muscular action to cause supination. They don't twist the barrel rearward with a supinating force. They throw the barrel down like throwing an axe, with ulnar deviation. The path flattens and the hand supinates, due to the shoulder tilt and turn, spine tilt and elbow drop.

 

[2bucketdad]

What was the question? rotflmao

 

[theaddition]

You now say it's about timing of top hand supination. There is very little top hand supination in an MLB swing. You say you're an engineer. Then you should be able to see that the top palm turning up is mostly from an overall change in geometry of the shoulders, arms and spine, that makes the palm turn up. The main bio-mechanical action is ulnar deviation. Not, supination.

Any supination that you see, is from the forearm being supinated by barrel force already in motion, not from a muscular action to cause supination. They don't twist the barrel rearward with a supinating force. They throw the barrel down like throwing an axe, with ulnar deviation. The path flattens and the hand supinates, due to the shoulder tilt and turn, spine tilt and elbow drop.

The supination comment was said flippantly because I wanted to use a fancy word.
In practice, If you want to feel what the foot should do, build a hitting board with a wedge.
Of course this isn't about the foot. But the underlying prmise is.

My whole line of questioning was going towards what you said regarding shoulder tilt and the incoorect notion (IMHO) of turning the barrel (HPP). The Either clip on and inside pitch is a good example. Turn the barrel (HPP),miss the ball, on the inside pitch. That's is irrefutable, IMHO. If someone doesn't agree with me, okay, IDGAF. If you and FFS want to talk in terms of body go ahead knock your socks off. But I'm just not interested because it doesn't translate to an child. I could've talked about angular velocity and torsional compression to my DD, but would that translate? Only if she too was an engineer. My advice is to keep the double speak to a minimum and becareful drawing 2 dimensional lines and dots on a 2 dimensional video whcih is footage of a 3 dimensional occurance.

Happy Thanksgiving

Over and out.

 

[RayR]

In reading your dialog with FiveFrameSwing, it seems you have done the same. I saw nothing from you about your belief, and he asked you.

You now say it's about timing of top hand supination. There is very little top hand supination in an MLB swing. You say you're an engineer. Then you should be able to see that the top palm turning up is mostly from an overall change in geometry of the shoulders, arms and spine, that makes the palm turn up. The main bio-mechanical action is ulnar deviation. Not, supination.

Any supination that you see, is from the forearm being supinated by barrel force already in motion, not from a muscular action to cause supination. They don't twist the barrel rearward with a supinating force. They throw the barrel down like throwing an axe, with ulnar deviation. The path flattens and the hand supinates, due to the shoulder tilt and turn, spine tilt and elbow drop.

I agree - i do not think there is not an intent on the pro hitters to turn the bat rearward....they use their hands to apply force to the handle in a way that allows them to get the barrel in motion much earlier in the swing then a 14-18 girl typically does...

having a teenage girl that swings with the typical front shoulder blow out / leave the hands behind / front arm straightens / rear elbow leads / as the barrel drops / and the back foot spins learn how to use her hands to turn/throw the barrel into the ball gets results, period, exclamation point....

But, in all seriousness I ask this - what do you have against using the hands more actively to swing a bat? I don't believe anyone is advocating not using the legs or asking a player to just swing with her arms. And if turning the barrel type instruction helps get a player hitting better - then what is the problem?

 

[RayR]

Thanks - I ripped that one off from somewhere....it is a great restraint to keep the hands up as well....I posted that set up a while back and instead of a conversation about the merits of the drill - there was nit picking on the girl's swing....

MTS,
1 time you posted a gif of a younger girl swinging at a ball on tee. You placed a yellow rope that followed the path of a pitched ball to the catcher. This was a good example of the "candles" showing part of the path to the ball.

 

[jbooth]

The supination comment was said flippantly because I wanted to use a fancy word.
In practice, If you want to feel what the foot should do, build a hitting board with a wedge.
Of course this isn't about the foot. But the underlying prmise is.

My whole line of questioning was going towards what you said regarding shoulder tilt and the incoorect notion (IMHO) of turning the barrel (HPP). The Either clip on and inside pitch is a good example. Turn the barrel (HPP),miss the ball, on the inside pitch. That's is irrefutable, IMHO. If someone doesn't agree with me, okay, IDGAF. If you and FFS want to talk in terms of body go ahead knock your socks off. But I'm just not interested because it doesn't translate to an child. I could've talked about angular velocity and torsional compression to my DD, but would that translate? Only if she too was an engineer. My advice is to keep the double speak to a minimum and becareful drawing 2 dimensional lines and dots on a 2 dimensional video whcih is footage of a 3 dimensional occurance.

Happy Thanksgiving

Over and out.

You're right about not talking technical to the student. I don't think anybody does that. But, this is the technical forum of this site, and those of us who obsess over the technical bio-mechanics, do so here. If you don't want to participate in such detailed discussions, that is your choice. Post on the "practical" forum on this site.

 

[jbooth]

I agree - i do not think there is not an intent on the pro hitters to turn the bat rearward....they use their hands to apply force to the handle in a way that allows them to get the barrel in motion much earlier in the swing then a 14-18 girl typically does...

having a teenage girl that swings with the typical front shoulder blow out / leave the hands behind / front arm straightens / rear elbow leads / as the barrel drops / and the back foot spins learn how to use her hands to turn/throw the barrel into the ball gets results, period, exclamation point....

But, in all seriousness I ask this - what do you have against using the hands more actively to swing a bat? I don't believe anyone is advocating not using the legs or asking a player to just swing with her arms. And if turning the barrel type instruction helps get a player hitting better - then what is the problem?

I DO believe in using the hands. Just not in the way that some people describe on this forum.

Pros talk about keeping the hands back, keeping the barrel up, and lagging it. All of those statements contradict what some people state here.

Perhaps we need to know what is meant by "early" and "late."

If "late" barrel movement or hand use means that you take your hands away from the shoulder, toward the ball, and snap the barrel after the hands are out front, then I totally, 100% agree that that is NOT what you want to do.

If "early" barrel movement means applying force that moves the barrel toward the backstop, using a force to supinate the forearm as the back elbow drops; I totally, 100% disagree with that.

The barrel is thrown, at the ball, (not rearward) using ulnar deviation of both hands, right after the back elbow drops. Supination occurs after the barrel starts to move away from the body, toward the ball, and it is not a forced twist of the forearm, it is a reaction to the moving barrel.

You throw the barrel early, if early means throwing it while the hands are still at the back armpit.

As I have stated and shown many times. The throw starts approximately here;

 

[redhotcoach]

J., What about the appearance of bat speed (blur) before the bat get to the above position.

How does the bat move from vertical to that position.

If the bat isn't thrown until that position why don't we see a speed increase at that point?

How does the bat move from vertical to contact with just ulner deviation (wrist bending pinky to wrist?)?

Is "keeping hands back" the same as "stretch"? We all talk about keeping the bat vertical, and isn't "lagging" it the same as "working under" and lat scrunching with little barrel movement?

Trying to find some common ground. Sorry I am out of town without computer access to post vid.