DD Bat Drag ?

[rdbass]

The supination comment was said flippantly because I wanted to use a fancy word.
In practice, If you want to feel what the foot should do, build a hitting board with a wedge.
Of course this isn't about the foot. But the underlying prmise is.

My whole line of questioning was going towards what you said regarding shoulder tilt and the incoorect notion (IMHO) of turning the barrel (HPP). The Either clip on and inside pitch is a good example. Turn the barrel (HPP),miss the ball, on the inside pitch. That's is irrefutable, IMHO. If someone doesn't agree with me, okay, IDGAF. If you and FFS want to talk in terms of body go ahead knock your socks off. But I'm just not interested because it doesn't translate to an child. I could've talked about angular velocity and torsional compression to my DD, but would that translate? Only if she too was an engineer. My advice is to keep the double speak to a minimum and becareful drawing 2 dimensional lines and dots on a 2 dimensional video whcih is footage of a 3 dimensional occurance.

Happy Thanksgiving

Over and out.

Can you explain this just a little be more. What am I looking for or feeling for off the wedge? More of a rear leg/foot drive? It maybe a stupid question but, just trying to make sure I have the correct purpose. While I'm waiting for the turkey to cook.

 

[RayR]

High Five!!

Get the barrel going and train your hands/arms to create an inside path....you will be surprised how your brain will start organizing other part of your body to accomplish the goal of hitting a rock with a stick...if you allow it to happen and not try and undermine yourself...

I believe the discussion between jbooth and MTS is really more about "feel" than anything else. I think they're describing the same thing with different words.

I agree with MTS as far as how to convey the very start of the swing to a student. I want the student to be aggressive from the get go.

 

[jbooth]

I believe this is the part that I have trouble with. It makes it sound like there's not much effort to get to elbow drop. This is all happening in a split second of transition to the elbow drop.

There is much power being applied here. It is an aggressive move getting to the point where you actually throw the barrel.

And this is happening in millionths of a second, so there is no room for nonaggression.

That's not true. I've had a few of my students put the shaft on the rear deltoid, as in Epstein's torque drill, with the elbow already down, and they hit BP pitches out of the park. Just turn and snap/throw the barrel.

They swing with their normal swing movements except with no early barrel movement. Your body moves the bat, the hands throw the barrel. You don't need to accelerate the barrel before the energy from the kinetic chain gets to the hands. Which occurs a bit before the position shown in the photo.

 

[redhotcoach]

That's not true. I've had a few of my students put the shaft on the rear deltoid, as in Epstein's torque drill, with the elbow already down, and they hit BP pitches out of the park. Just turn and snap/throw the barrel.

They swing with their normal swing movements except with no early barrel movement. Your body moves the bat, the hands throw the barrel. You don't need to accelerate the barrel before the energy from the kinetic chain gets to the hands. Which occurs a bit before the position shown in the photo.

J what kind of adjustability is in that swing? My dd has always been that hitter...she looks close to doing the delt drill up to bat...she throws the barrel...she parks more than any girl...she never strikes out...but face that 1 in 100 pitcher, and she gives the youngster fans quite a work out chasing a dozen foul balls.

 

[softballphreak]

That's not true. I've had a few of my students put the shaft on the rear deltoid, as in Epstein's torque drill, with the elbow already down, and they hit BP pitches out of the park. Just turn and snap/throw the barrel.

They swing with their normal swing movements except with no early barrel movement. Your body moves the bat, the hands throw the barrel. You don't need to accelerate the barrel before the energy from the kinetic chain gets to the hands. Which occurs a bit before the position shown in the photo.

I use a variation of the deltoid drill that I call a check swing drill and some of the girls can really pop it. I've even used it in games for better accuracy and hoping for mid-field hits when the outfield backs up to the fence. But there is not as much power from that position.

If the action prior to the elbow slot wasn't that significant many wouldn't use it. I recall back in the days when fastpitch first started in our area that the girls were taught the deltoid swing primarily because they "weren't fast enough" to point of contact.

That little feeling of "attack" (felt in he hands) at the very start of the swing is very important IMO; even if it's only a mental thing.

 

[jbooth]

J what kind of adjustability is in that swing? My dd has always been that hitter...she looks close to doing the delt drill up to bat...she throws the barrel...she parks more than any girl...she never strikes out...but face that 1 in 100 pitcher, and she gives the youngster fans quite a work out chasing a dozen foul balls.

I didn't say you should do that in a game. Geez, I was making the point that you don't have to get early barrel movement to get enough bat speed to hit it out. Of course your adjustability would lack if you hit from the drill position.

 

[jbooth]

I use a variation of the deltoid drill that I call a check swing drill and some of the girls can really pop it. I've even used it in games for better accuracy and hoping for mid-field hits when the outfield backs up to the fence. But there is not as much power from that position.

If the action prior to the elbow slot wasn't that significant many wouldn't use it. I recall back in the days when fastpitch first started in our area that the girls were taught the deltoid swing primarily because they "weren't fast enough" to point of contact.

That little feeling of "attack" (felt in he hands) at the very start of the swing is very important IMO; even if it's only a mental thing.

Sure. I'm not saying you should do it in a game. And yes, you do get more pop if you load the hands, but it isn't because you are turning the barrel rearward from there, it's because the bat as a whole, gains momentum as the elbow drops and the hands move into the armpit. You can get a bit more momentum from a style like Bonds' but he isn't pulling the barrel back.

I would venture an educated guess from what he says often, that when he is moving the bat toward the pitcher and back before he loads, that he is thinking of how he wants to hammer forward and down when he actually swings, versus thinking of the pull back part of that motion that he does before the pitch is released. He's reminding himself to get the barrel down to the ball.

 

[redhotcoach]

Sure. I'm not saying you should do it in a game. And yes, you do get more pop if you load the hands, but it isn't because you are turning the barrel rearward from there, it's because the bat as a whole, gains momentum as the elbow drops and the hands move into the armpit. You can get a bit more momentum from a style like Bonds' but he isn't pulling the barrel back.

I would venture an educated guess from what he says often, that when he is moving the bat toward the pitcher and back before he loads, that he is thinking of how he wants to hammer forward and down when he actually swings, versus thinking of the pull back part of that motion that he does before the pitch is released. He's reminding himself to get the barrel down to the ball.

Is there somewhere on the net or a book or something where you get all your info that mlb players are saying or thinking about their swing. I have been trying to find something for some time and all I find is the Tony Gwynn analysis of Bond's swing. The one that Tony says Bonds pulls the knob of his bat with his bottom hand to the ball, and his top hand is along for the ride.

Also...Bond's bat is vertical....and as you say "gains momentum as elbow drops, and hands move to arm pit" what direction is the barrel gaining momentum?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Are his shoulders tilted? Meaning the back shoulder is below the front.
Are they turned? Meaning his chest is turning toward the pitcher.

What do you call this below, if it isn't tilt and turn?

What do you call Pujols' back shoulder dropping below his front?
Is his chest moving toward the pitcher?
Does his bat move from above his head to over the shoulder, while his top palm stays near vertical?

Is the light colored part of his bat (shaft) moving closer to his shoulder or away from it?

When does the shaft move away which would indicate the barrel going rearward?
Where is the corresponding supination? He is lagging the barrel. He will use his hands to take the barrel down to the ball, at the point where the video stops, and he will throw it down using ulnar deviation, and some supination will happen as he does that. He will not take the barrel down from that point, by using just supination, or by whirling the barrel backwards. It's a hammering action, not a whirl. Or, as Williams said, it's like taking an axe to a tree. Do you swing an axe at a tree by focusing on whirling the head of the axe backwards?

Bonds showed that to Finch. He told her to take the barrel straight down to the ball and get the top hand through. He never told her to pull the barrel backwards.

Jim, I don't personally think about sending the barrel rearward ... but the barrel is certainly sent into an arc.

What you refer to as ulnar deviation is basically the unhinging process ... and it is hugely important. The setup, or loading process for this, results in the wrist of the top hand becoming radially deviated and extended ... generally at a peak in the bat lag position.

IMO it is this hinging and unhinging that Williams placed a strong focus on ... a very strong focus on.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

And I think we just keep disagreeing on hand/wrist usage before the point Bonds is at in the clip below....

I maintain that he is applying force on the handle via his hands and wrists to get to this point....how else could he get to this point and be able to create the bat speed he does? It has been constantly said that players don't do anything but turn to get to this point and then everything magically releases - but I totally disagree with that.

And I will keep repeating myself here with this for the moms and dads that read here and can't translate the "technical jargon" used in most of these posts:

If you have a player that typically drops the barrel and drags the handle around as the hands sweep out away from her body then having her learn to put the barrel in motion earlier using her hands will almost automatically increase the speed in which the barrel comes around giving her a much better chance at squaring up the ball....I see this with every player that gives it a shot.....

Sometimes I ask the players to focus on barrel movement and if that does not click - I will have her focus on turning the knob of the bat as tightly as possible and show her how there is a pivot point between her hands like there is on a seesaw.

It is a starting point to get them out of dragging the handle to turning it....barrel awareness....as this is being learned they also start to work on hand path....for adjustability....

I think the girl in this thread is a perfect example of how learning to turn the barrel can change the swing from a long, slow one to something that gives a hitter a real fighting chance to hit - her dad's story about the practice the other day is proof....

That really is the crux of the disagreement.

I believe that many us ... on both sides of the discussion ... have a feel of a pressure sensation in their hands. The debate is often over what exactly is occurring with respect to the 'hands' and when.

One theory is that the pressure that people report in the top hand at swing initiation is simply wrist contraction.

Wrist contraction ... what is that?

An isometric contraction occurs when the muscles fire, yet there is no change to the length of the muscle. For example, when you pick up a plate of food from the counter and carry it to the kitchen table, your wrist flexors and extensors are both firing so that you support the plate and don't tilt the plate dropping the contents on the floor or on yourself.

I believe one can tie in the lateral tilting process that Jim describes with the "desire" to turn the barrel ... and that one can be trained to have a pure focus on their hands and properly sequence their swing ... and to do that, the feel of the barrel is hugely important.