DD Bat Drag ?

[jbooth]

J., What about the appearance of bat speed (blur) before the bat get to the above position.

How does the bat move from vertical to that position.

Shoulder tilt and elbow drop. Try it. Get in front of a mirror. Get in a hitting stance with the barrel above your head. Now, try not to supinate whatsoever, and tilt your shoulders and drop your elbow, and stop the instant that the elbow is at your side. Where is the barrel now? It's over your back shoulder, maybe even to the outside of it.

Now, from there; simultaneously ulnar deviate and turn your chest toward the pitcher, with the spine and shoulders tilted. There is some supination of the top hand as you ulnar deviate, to get the top hand facing up, but that happens as the UD is throwing the barrel down in an arc.

Where does the barrel go? Right to the ball, and the path flattens out.

If the bat isn't thrown until that position why don't we see a speed increase at that point?

How does the bat move from vertical to contact with just ulnar deviation (wrist bending pinky to wrist?)?

The speed does increase. It moves from vertical as I stated above. The turn of the shoulders while tilted.

 

[HYP]

I DO believe in using the hands. Just not in the way that some people describe on this forum.

Pros talk about keeping the hands back, keeping the barrel up, and lagging it. All of those statements contradict what some people state here.

Perhaps we need to know what is meant by "early" and "late."

If "late" barrel movement or hand use means that you take your hands away from the shoulder, toward the ball, and snap the barrel after the hands are out front, then I totally, 100% agree that that is NOT what you want to do.

If "early" barrel movement means applying force that moves the barrel toward the backstop, using a force to supinate the forearm as the back elbow drops; I totally, 100% disagree with that.

The barrel is thrown, at the ball, (not rearward) using ulnar deviation of both hands, right after the back elbow drops. Supination occurs after the barrel starts to move away from the body, toward the ball, and it is not a forced twist of the forearm, it is a reaction to the moving barrel.

You throw the barrel early, if early means throwing it while the hands are still at the back armpit.

As I have stated and shown many times. The throw starts approximately here;

Jim,

Is that where the throw happens or is that where the barrel is released?

IMO, the throw starts prior to that and the release happens once the hands find the ball.

When a pitcher lets go of the ball is that where the throw happens or the release?

 

[HYP]

Shoulder tilt and elbow drop. Try it. Get in front of a mirror. Get in a hitting stance with the barrel above your head. Now, try not to supinate whatsoever, and tilt your shoulders and drop your elbow, and stop the instant that the elbow is at your side. Where is the barrel now? It's over your back shoulder, maybe even to the outside of it.

Now, from there; simultaneously ulnar deviate and turn your chest toward the pitcher, with the spine and shoulders tilted. There is some supination of the top hand as you ulnar deviate, to get the top hand facing up, but that happens as the UD is throwing the barrel down in an arc.

Where does the barrel go? Right to the ball, and the path flattens out.



The speed does increase. It moves from vertical as I stated above. The turn of the shoulders while tilted.

Trying to better understand. Are you saying the shoulders tilt then turn?

 

[jbooth]

Trying to better understand. Are you saying the shoulders tilt then turn?

Are his shoulders tilted? Meaning the back shoulder is below the front.
Are they turned? Meaning his chest is turning toward the pitcher.

What do you call this below, if it isn't tilt and turn?

What do you call Pujols' back shoulder dropping below his front?
Is his chest moving toward the pitcher?
Does his bat move from above his head to over the shoulder, while his top palm stays near vertical?

Is the light colored part of his bat (shaft) moving closer to his shoulder or away from it?

When does the shaft move away which would indicate the barrel going rearward?
Where is the corresponding supination? He is lagging the barrel. He will use his hands to take the barrel down to the ball, at the point where the video stops, and he will throw it down using ulnar deviation, and some supination will happen as he does that. He will not take the barrel down from that point, by using just supination, or by whirling the barrel backwards. It's a hammering action, not a whirl. Or, as Williams said, it's like taking an axe to a tree. Do you swing an axe at a tree by focusing on whirling the head of the axe backwards?

Bonds showed that to Finch. He told her to take the barrel straight down to the ball and get the top hand through. He never told her to pull the barrel backwards.

 

[RayR]

And I think we just keep disagreeing on hand/wrist usage before the point Bonds is at in the clip below....

I maintain that he is applying force on the handle via his hands and wrists to get to this point....how else could he get to this point and be able to create the bat speed he does? It has been constantly said that players don't do anything but turn to get to this point and then everything magically releases - but I totally disagree with that.

And I will keep repeating myself here with this for the moms and dads that read here and can't translate the "technical jargon" used in most of these posts:

If you have a player that typically drops the barrel and drags the handle around as the hands sweep out away from her body then having her learn to put the barrel in motion earlier using her hands will almost automatically increase the speed in which the barrel comes around giving her a much better chance at squaring up the ball....I see this with every player that gives it a shot.....

Sometimes I ask the players to focus on barrel movement and if that does not click - I will have her focus on turning the knob of the bat as tightly as possible and show her how there is a pivot point between her hands like there is on a seesaw.

It is a starting point to get them out of dragging the handle to turning it....barrel awareness....as this is being learned they also start to work on hand path....for adjustability....

I think the girl in this thread is a perfect example of how learning to turn the barrel can change the swing from a long, slow one to something that gives a hitter a real fighting chance to hit - her dad's story about the practice the other day is proof....

I DO believe in using the hands. Just not in the way that some people describe on this forum.

Pros talk about keeping the hands back, keeping the barrel up, and lagging it. All of those statements contradict what some people state here.

Perhaps we need to know what is meant by "early" and "late."

If "late" barrel movement or hand use means that you take your hands away from the shoulder, toward the ball, and snap the barrel after the hands are out front, then I totally, 100% agree that that is NOT what you want to do.

If "early" barrel movement means applying force that moves the barrel toward the backstop, using a force to supinate the forearm as the back elbow drops; I totally, 100% disagree with that.

The barrel is thrown, at the ball, (not rearward) using ulnar deviation of both hands, right after the back elbow drops. Supination occurs after the barrel starts to move away from the body, toward the ball, and it is not a forced twist of the forearm, it is a reaction to the moving barrel.

You throw the barrel early, if early means throwing it while the hands are still at the back armpit.

As I have stated and shown many times. The throw starts approximately here;

 

[jbooth]

And I think we just keep disagreeing on hand/wrist usage before the point Bonds is at in the clip below....

I maintain that he is applying force on the handle via his hands and wrists to get to this point....how else could he get to this point and be able to create the bat speed he does?

Surely, he is doing something before that point, but it isn't an aggressive movement to get the bat going to the ball. The movements prior to the point in the photo are getting him in position to hammer the barrel down and get the top hand through.

It has been constantly said that players don't do anything but turn to get to this point and then everything magically releases - but I totally disagree with that.

They don't just turn, I'll agree with that. But, they are only preparing to throw. That's what lag means to me. Lag doesn't mean that nothing is happening to the bat, or that the hands aren't doing something.

And I will keep repeating myself here with this for the moms and dads that read here and can't translate the "technical jargon" used in most of these posts:

If you have a player that typically drops the barrel and drags the handle around as the hands sweep out away from her body then having her learn to put the barrel in motion earlier using her hands will almost automatically increase the speed in which the barrel comes around giving her a much better chance at squaring up the ball....I see this with every player that gives it a shot.....

I teach them to use the hands early also. But, that means to start the throw while the hands are still at the armpit. I totally agree with you, that the bat should not be pulled or pushed. You throw early. But, that doesn't mean that you whirl it. You throw it, hammer it at the ball.

Sometimes I ask the players to focus on barrel movement and if that does not click - I will have her focus on turning the knob of the bat as tightly as possible and show her how there is a pivot point between her hands like there is on a seesaw.

I absolutely agree. That's what ulnar deviation of both hands does. It pivots the bat around a spot between the hands. I tell them to do that early while the hands are at the armpit, but it isn't the first movement. It happens after the elbow drops.

Lagging the barrel, IMO, means to not be aggressive with it, until you're ready to throw it. You are ready to throw it after the elbow drops. Lagging it, to me, is pretty much leaving it alone until the elbow drops. That's what I see in MLB video and it's what they say they do.

 

[RayR]

The elbow drops because the hands are starting to apply pressure to the handle in the fashion we seem to agree upon while not dropping the barrel (prepping to throw/turn)....the rear elbow is the open chain being acted upon by the hands/wrists and lateral tilt and the beginnings of weight transfer....

Ever see a swing trained to swing with the shoulders and or scaps? Not much elbow movement because the hands have been taken out of play...they just hold on to the bat.

I would agree that in the clip below my rear elbow is not working as it really could/should - but this clip was taken over a couple of years ago and I was coming from using the shoulders/scaps to power the swing to experimenting with using the hands to get the barrel around...

 

[00fpdaddy]

I can't help it if you can't understand bio-mechanics.

Aside from that; just listen to what the pros say. They say they lag the barrel, and then take it straight down to the ball. That's what Bonds told Jennie Finch and what he demonstrated. You don't have to believe me. Believe him and others like him. Pujols says he keeps the barrel up and takes it down to the ball. NOBODY ever says that they turn the barrel early, or rearward.

Their bat movement and bone movements confirm what they say they do. You see it wrong. Simple as that.

Bone movements, that's all your preach. I give you that you know your bones, what moves the bones? Muscles, ligaments, tendons holding everything together. They contract, expand, twist, stretch. Maybe you don't fully comprehend what the muscles do in a high level swing. I can't explain it, but see the difference in gifs, I can feel the difference push/block/push vs. Snf/rear leg driver.

As far as the pros, some attest they can't even describe their own swing. Bonds may say a statement but his swing,its different from what he says. Puljos says he doesn't turn early/reward but gifs prove differently when you see frame by frame.

I know how you feel about HI, do you agree/disagree with Tewks analysis/aha moment with the Puljos clip.

I heard you describe your swing, how the pros swing, fine with it, it's not what the elite do.

"don't do as I say, do as I do"

 

[softballphreak]

Lagging the barrel, IMO, means to not be aggressive with it, until you're ready to throw it. You are ready to throw it after the elbow drops. Lagging it, to me, is pretty much leaving it alone until the elbow drops. That's what I see in MLB video and it's what they say they do.

I believe this is the part that I have trouble with. It makes it sound like there's not much effort to get to elbow drop. This is all happening in a split second of transition to the elbow drop.

There is much power being applied here. It is an aggressive move getting to the point where you actually throw the barrel.

And this is happening in millionths of a second, so there is no room for nonaggression.

 

[softballphreak]

I believe the discussion between jbooth and MTS is really more about "feel" than anything else. I think they're describing the same thing with different words.

I agree with MTS as far as how to convey the very start of the swing to a student. I want the student to be aggressive from the get go.