Curve-Screw-Rise-Drop

[GOINGDEEP]

Technically speaking, they're all fastballs...................with movement. Yes we can control the desired movement by axis, seam spin, seam grip, finger pressure, finger slide, inside/outside clench, wrist slot...........but because of their velocity...........its basically a running, dropping, cutting, rising, sinking fastball.

So how do we classify a certain pitch? Is it location? Not really, because I could throw just about any type pitch to the same spot. Is it the grip? Not really, because there is more to getting it to perform than finger prints. Is it spin? Not really, some can't produce the revolutions needed. So that really only leaves two things, speed and movement. And if these "movements" are within a few MPH of your top speed..............they are variations of your fastball.

Ok, I'm running and ducking for cover.

 

[cuzmail]

Hmmm.....

DD has worked with Cat and a recent major D1 grad and I can say that they both can throw a curve with a true horizontal spin axis. What I have noticed is the slower the pitch is thrown, the more true the spin appears to be.

DD gets true screwball spin, but her curve is a 10 to 4 spin making it move away and down to a right handed batter.

 

[chinamigarden]

Nice post. One question, you said Cat throws her curve "down and up"? Think that is an oxymoron...

I also disagree with your ascertain that the 12/6 fastball has less RPS than the 12/6 drop ball. For example, my DDs fastball is a four seam fastball and has the same RPS (19-22) and speed (low to mid 50's) as her four seam peel drop. The difference for her is the release angle. For the fastball, she throws it slightly higher so that it goes up and flattens out higher in the strike zone. For her peel drop, she slightly shortens her stride and tries to get "on top of the ball", releasing it slightly lower than her fastball and keeping it low in the strike zone. It appear to have more break because of the release angle of the pitch. RevFire spin rate and speed is virtually identical but there is no doubt one is breaking down more than the other.

Move this to the new does a drop ball really drop thread.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Sorta getting technical here, but the pic below(kind of compressed but best I could do) is a comparison of two pitches; a fastball and a dropball thrown by the same pitcher. Interesting the amount of data you can capture on one pitch. This data was captured using a device called Trackman....similar product is installed in all major league baseball stadiums. BTW the spin rates are in RPM, so divide by 60 to get RPS.
Hope you enjoy the data and can appreciate all that goes into delivering a quality pitch.

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

 

[JJsqueeze]

Rick- is there a key somewhere that defines the terms used and the units of the measurements? If I use my assumptions about what each of the items means then I come up with a conclusion that they look a whole lot like the same pitch.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Sorta getting technical here, but the pic below(kind of compressed but best I could do) is a comparison of two pitches; a fastball and a dropball thrown by the same pitcher. Interesting the amount of data you can capture on one pitch. This data was captured using a device called Trackman....similar product is installed in all major league baseball stadiums. BTW the spin rates are in RPM, so divide by 60 to get RPS.
Hope you enjoy the data and can appreciate all that goes into delivering a quality pitch.

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

View attachment 8844

Great to read that the trackman is being used.

Interesting that the fastball had a slightly higher spin rate. Also interesting that the dropball had a slightly greater vertical break. Is the release angle measured? Is the height that the ball is caught by the catcher recorded?

Please explain how to interpret the spin orientation from your numbers.

What is the 'Extension' reading measuring?

What is the difference between what 'RelSpeed' and 'ZoneSpeed' are measuring?

 

[Rocketech1]

Interesting that the drop ball has an RPS of 22 and the fastball 23.5. I would have expected the opposite.

But point well taken Rick, there are many factors affecting the "quality" of a good pitch not just speed, spin rate and axis angle.

 

[javasource]

Just an opinion, so don't read this as me hammering sluggers... just making some changes to what he posted for the sake of comparing thought processes on the matter... and commenting on a few other things I've been reading on here as of late.


BASIC TERMINOLOGY (and a few other words...)

1. Flight path: The path the ball takes from the pitcher to the catcher.
2. Fastball: The fastest ball 1 person throws. Can be a rise, drop, screw, etc...
3. Bulletspin: A pitch where the spin axis and the direction of the ball are the same.
4. Movement: The amount a pitch's flight path deviates from the release point... as well as the perceived path.
5. Unicorns: Horses with horns that fart rainbows. Fantasy, not reality.
6. Perfect Screwball: See Unicorns.
7. Perfect Curveball: See Unicorns.
8. Perfect Riseball: See Unicorns.
9. Perfect Dropball: See Unicorns.
10. Intangibles: Characteristics... like mindset, confidence/swagger, intelligence, presence, short-term memory loss, work ethic, etc... that an athlete either possesses, or does not. Astounding what this adds to each pitch thrown.
11. Centering a ball: When the center of the bat meets the center of the ball. Often the worst case scenario for a pitcher.
12. Foul ball: A 'long strike'.
13. Perfect Pitch: A perception within a single situation. A riseball that goes yard was the perfect pitch for the batter. A pitch thrown that is poorly contacted or mistimed by the batter, resulting in an out, foul, strike, and believe it or not... at times a ball, can very well be the perfect pitch for the pitcher AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME... against THAT batter.
14. BS: Projecting that one opinion is better than another, based on past experience/success. The quality of our experiences are only as good as our ability to reflect, learn, and share for the betterment of OTHERS... leading to QOI...
15. QOI (Quality of Instruction... as it relates to pitching): Notice this is not quantity of instruction. It is the ability of one to transfer an understanding they possess... to an ACTION that another performs. Time spent endorsing experience or personal achievement... is time wasted instructing.
16. Expert: A title given to one by another. An expert to one, is not always so with another. Once self-proclaimed, you become an idiot, incapable of personal growth.
17. Polemics: An absolute waste of time. Removes the possibility of exchanging/sharing ideas for the group of participants/community.
18. Rhetoric: Empty speak that is adverserial to knowledge. More concern is given to the effect your words have on an audience than the truth of the matter at hand. Can be beneficial for those that need a reminder that they are one of many with an opinion.
19. Opinion: Not always a fact.

BASIC SCIENCE

A curve moves in a direction opposite the throwing side, in relationship to where it is released.

If a pitch has bullet spin, the speed and trajectory determine the flight path.

The amount of movement of the ball depends on the trajectory (release angle), speed, and gravity. When the axis and the speed of a thrown ball compliments the intended trajectory, the movement of said pitch will be greater.

CURVE BALL

These are screen captures from Cat Osterman's video on throwing a curve/rise/drop. Here is a link to the video Curve-Rise-DropThe ball was marked with black tape.

The spin and axis she achieves compliment the pitch she is throwing... which is to a location... and most meaningful when thrown against a living/breathing batter, in a performance activity we refer to as live games.

View attachment 8841

SCREWBALL

A screw moves in a direction of the throwing side, in relationship to where it is released.

There is plenty of evidence of pitchers throwing screwballs successfully in games, against living/breathing batters, and at very high levels. Similar to a riseball and curveball... the trajectory, speed, and ultimate placement of that SINGLE PITCH faces a variable known as the batter's swing, or lack thereof.

RISEBALLS

A riseball moves upward, in relationship to where it was released. The majority of riseballs, curveballs, and screwballs are corkscrew, not unicorns.

DROPBALLS

A dropball moves downward, finishing below the height it was released. Arguing that a change-up is a drop is a valid argument, IMO.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

SCREWBALL

There are no videos of a pitcher getting anything close to 9-3 spin. The videos that are available show pitchers throwing a "bullet spin" pitch.

In the combined experience of Bill Hillhouse and Rick Pauly, who have coached hundreds (thousands?) of pitchers, who played men's fastpitch softball at a high level, and who have been involved in fastpitch pitching for a combined 80 years have seen *THREE* people who could throw a screwball.

FYI ... Rick Pauly teaches pitchers how to throw a screwball.

I was informed by someone that worked alongside Rick's daughter that she throws a screw-drop.

Rick had at least two of his pitchers at Upstate throwing a screw-rise.

 

[Rick Pauly]

Great to read that the trackman is being used.

Interesting that the fastball had a slightly higher spin rate.
My experience is that a majority of pitchers fastballs have higher spin rates then their dropball. Typically a dropball release is a "trained motion" and usually trained motions do not react as fast as natural motions (fastball release).

Also interesting that the dropball had a slightly greater vertical break. It is interesting and is difficult to explain 'cause there are so many other contributing factors other than spin rate.....the one thing not measured or taken into account here is seam orientation....although not a huge factor it may have been the difference on this one pitch.



Is the release angle measured? There is both a Vertical and a Horizontal release angle measured. My experience is that the Vertical release angle is significantly important relative to the dropball or fastball total movement.

Is the height that the ball is caught by the catcher recorded? No, there is a height at the front of the plate....Plate Location Height.

Please explain how to interpret the spin orientation from your numbers. Here is the definition from Trackman..remember that these definitions are relative to baseball; 31. Spin Axis = The direction the ball is spinning, reported in degrees of tilt. Note that:
a. A ball thrown with a spin axis of 0 has pure top spin. The top of the ball is moving away from the pitcher and the bottom of the ball is moving away from the batter. This is a classic “12-6” curveball. This kind of spin will cause the ball to drop more than gravity would cause alone.
b. A ball thrown with a spin axis of 180 has pure backspin and is a classic four seam fastball, with the top of the ball moving towards the pitcher and the bottom of the ball moving toward the batter. This kind of spin will cause the ball to drop less that gravity would cause alone.
c. A ball thrown with a spin axis of 90 is spinning squarely toward the left, from the pitcher’s perspective (and would create a break to the left), while a ball thrown with a spin axis of 270 is spinning squarely toward the right, from the pitcher’s perspective (and would create a break to the right).
32. Tilt = Spin axis converted into clock time, rounded to the nearest 15 minutes. As a rule of thumb, the ball will break in the direction of the number on the clock face. For example:
a. 6:00 is perfect top spin (classic “12 – 6” curveball), causing the ball to break down
b. 12:00 is perfect back spin (Four seam fastball, with no left-right movement), causing the ball to break upward relative to how it would have moved due to gravity alone – cutters are around 11:00 and sinkers are around 2:00 for a RHP, while cutters are around 1:00 and sinkers around 10:00 for a LHP.
c. 3:00 is a “Frisbee” spinning and breaking to the right, while 9:00 is a “Frisbee” spinning and breaking to the left.

What is the 'Extension' reading measuring? Don't have their definition My memory tells me it is the height of the ball at released.

What is the difference between what 'RelSpeed' and 'ZoneSpeed' are measuring?

Rel. Speed = Speed of pitch when it leaves the pitcher’s hand;Zone Speed = Speed of the pitch as it crosses the front of home plate

Going to try to answer the questions....see highlighted answers.