Curve-Screw-Rise-Drop

[sluggers]

What do we know about this pitches?


BASIC TERMINOLOGY

1) Flight path: The path the ball takes from the pitcher to the catcher.
2) Fastball: A pitch thrown with (a) a relatively small amount of down spin or (b) a pitch thrown with bullet spin.
3) Bulletspin: A pitch where the spin axis and the direction of the ball are the same.
4) Movement/Break: The amount a pitch's flight path deviates from the the flight path of the ball if the ball were thrown at the same speed, release point and angle, and with pure bullet spin.
5) Perfect Screwball: A pitch which has pure 3-9 spin. The axis would be perfectly vertical.
6) Perfect Curveball: A pitch which has pure 9-3 spin. The axis would be perfectly vertical.
7) Perfect Riseball: A pitch which has pure 6-12 spin. The axis would be perfectly horizontal.
8) Perfect Dropball: A pitch which has pure 12-6 spin. The axis would be perfectly horizontal.

BASIC SCIENCE

In order for a pitch to curve, the ball has to spin in a plane perpendicular to the flight path of the ball. From the viewpoint of the catcher, if the ball spins from 3 to 9, the ball will break to the catchers left. If the ball spins from 9 to 3, the ball breaks to the catcher's right.

If a pitch has bullet spin, the pitch will not have any movement.

The amount of movement of the ball depends upon (a) the spin rate (Revolutions Per Second) and (b) the axis of rotation of the ball. If the axis of rotation of the ball is tilted, the ball will move both up/down and left/right. E.g., if the pitcher throws a ball with 2-8 spin, the ball will break down and in. If the ball is thrown with 7-2 the will break up and away. *HOWEVER* the movement of the ball will be less.

CURVE BALL

These are screen captures from Cat Osterman's video on throwing a curve/rise/drop. Here is a link to the video Curve-Rise-DropThe ball was marked with black tape.

Cat Osterman, considered to be "the best female movement pitcher in the world," does not get 3-9 spin (she is a lefty) on her curve ball. (Note that the video was shot as an instructional video on "how to throw a curveball".) She gets something around 4-10 spin on the ball. Thus, the ball breaks "down and up" to a right hand batter. In other words, it is not a "true" curve, it is a curve with some rise action.

Other than Osterman, there is



SCREWBALL

There are no videos of a pitcher getting anything close to 9-3 spin. The videos that are available show pitchers throwing a "bullet spin" pitch.

In the combined experience of Bill Hillhouse and Rick Pauly, who have coached hundreds (thousands?) of pitchers, who played men's fastpitch softball at a high level, and who have been involved in fastpitch pitching for a combined 80 years have seen *THREE* people who could throw a screwball.

There is no evidence of anyone throwing a pitch with screwball spin, or anything approaching screwball spin.

RISEBALLS

The majority of riseballs are bullet spin pitches. There seem to be a few pitchers who can with 7-1 spin.

DROPBALLS

If a pitcher throws a "bullet spin" fastball, then the drop ball is a pitch with 12-6 spin.

If a pitcher throws a "down spin" fastball, then the drop also has 12-6 spin, but must have a high RPS when compared with her fastball. The difference in movement between these two pitches would be based on the RPS of the pitches. A 30 RPS drop will move more than a 15 RPS drop.

 

[riseball]

Good start but your definitions/terminology are contradictory. For me your definition of the fastball is problematic. I struggle with understanding how a pitch thrown with bulletspin can be anything other than a pitch thrown with bulletspin. While it may for some pitchers be a fastball, it is not a riseball, curve ball... Unless of course the intent of the pitcher defines the pitch.

 

[Doug Romrell]

...it is not a "true" curve, it is a curve with some rise action.

Sluggers, May not be a perfect curve (I prefer the word "perfect" over "true" in this case.", but it is a curve nonetheless.

The two pitchers I work with both throw, what I refer to as, a rise-curve. The one pitcher gets more curve and less velocity. The other gets gets closer to a rise than a curve. I catch for them both in pitching practice. Both are getting backspin (not perfect bullet spin), and both are getting some curve movement. We are, however, trying to work on each of them having a rise closer to ideal and curve closer to ideal. It's tough to do. Regardless, I'm pleased each can get at least backspin and curve-spin, even if I'd like a perfect rise and perfect curve.

 

[Rocketech1]

Nice post. One question, you said Cat throws her curve "down and up"? Think that is an oxymoron...

I also disagree with your ascertain that the 12/6 fastball has less RPS than the 12/6 drop ball. For example, my DDs fastball is a four seam fastball and has the same RPS (19-22) and speed (low to mid 50's) as her four seam peel drop. The difference for her is the release angle. For the fastball, she throws it slightly higher so that it goes up and flattens out higher in the strike zone. For her peel drop, she slightly shortens her stride and tries to get "on top of the ball", releasing it slightly lower than her fastball and keeping it low in the strike zone. It appear to have more break because of the release angle of the pitch. RevFire spin rate and speed is virtually identical but there is no doubt one is breaking down more than the other.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Nice post. One question, you said Cat throws her curve "down and up"? Think that is an oxymoron...

I also disagree with your ascertain that the 12/6 fastball has less RPS than the 12/6 drop ball. For example, my DDs fastball is a four seam fastball and has the same RPS (19-22) and speed (low to mid 50's) as her four seam peel drop. The difference for her is the release angle. For the fastball, she throws it slightly higher so that it goes up and flattens out higher in the strike zone. For her peel drop, she slightly shortens her stride and tries to get "on top of the ball", releasing it slightly lower than her fastball and keeping it low in the strike zone. It appear to have more break because of the release angle of the pitch. RevFire spin rate and speed is virtually identical but there is no doubt one is breaking down more than the other.

Sounds like 1 pitch to me. Same/similar grip, speed, and spin but if its thrown up in the zone its a fastball, but when thrown low in the zone its a drop.

 

[riseball]

I agree, same pitch to a different location.

 

[JAD]

Can one of the pitching experts explain the difference between a peel drop and a HE fastball? They look like similar pitches and when my DD throws a peel drop the speed is almost identical to her fastball. If she throws the peel drop correctly it will "break" downward in front of the plate - assuming she did not bury it 5 ft in front of the plate, to the dismay of her catcher and her parents....

 

[Rocketech1]

Can one of the pitching experts explain the difference between a peel drop and a HE fastball?..

If you are throwing a correct peel drop using IR, you will get much more RPS and velocity than using Hello Elbow mechanics. The only similarity between the two is 12/6 top spin. Other than that, the differences are like night and day.

If your DDs peel drop looks like her HE fastball, she probably isn't using much internal rotation on either of these two pitches.

 

[JAD]

If you are throwing a correct peel drop using IR, you will get much more RPS and velocity than using Hello Elbow mechanics. The only similarity between the two is 12/6 top spin. Other than that, the differences are like night and day.

If your DDs peel drop looks like her HE fastball, she probably isn't using much internal rotation on either of these two pitches.

DD throws a IR fastball, but her peel drop finish looks a lot like the old HE fastball she learned when she was 10....

 

[Rocketech1]

DD throws a IR fastball, but her peel drop finish looks a lot like the old HE fastball she learned when she was 10....

Who told her to finish that way on her drop ball? Some PCs think you need to push the ball down the circle and peel up the back on the ball to make it spin more which is incorrect advice. If she is getting 12/6 spin on her IR fastball, that is the way she should be throwing her peel drop. They are basically the same pitch. No HE elbow mechanics needed.

I can't emphasize more the need for pitchers who have movement pitches to get a RevFire machine. The stats don't lie and give immediate feedback. I would guess that it's impossible to get a reading of 20 RPS or higher using true HE elbow mechanics.