Crow Hopping

[Lozza]

I was wondering for some advice.

I've pitched for about ten years now. (started at 18) I'm a solid B level pitcher in my local fast pitch comp. However this year, in Australia (in accordance with the new ISF rules) crow hopping is now legal.

I personally will not be incorporating it into my pitching, as I find it terrible mechanics and prone to injury. (and as I already have a recurring shoulder injury, I don't want to risk anything with it) However, my local association has recently done some clinics and have taught all the girls in my club to start crow hopping. I've watched nearly every pitcher lose all consistency, for only a minimal speed gain. I've tried to talk them out of doing so, but with their parents being 'speed is good!' its not working.

What are people's thoughts on crow hopping, and for those that are against it, can you give me some more arguments to counter-act the parents with for next season? (I'll be doing a pitching/catching bi-monthly clinic. I can't commit enough to coach a team by myself but I'm sick of watching too many girls get taught crap mechanics that I have to do something)

 

[BoardMember]

You mean crow-hopping like this?

I was wondering for some advice.

I've pitched for about ten years now. (started at 18) I'm a solid B level pitcher in my local fast pitch comp. However this year, in Australia (in accordance with the new ISF rules) crow hopping is now legal.

I personally will not be incorporating it into my pitching, as I find it terrible mechanics and prone to injury. (and as I already have a recurring shoulder injury, I don't want to risk anything with it) However, my local association has recently done some clinics and have taught all the girls in my club to start crow hopping. I've watched nearly every pitcher lose all consistency, for only a minimal speed gain. I've tried to talk them out of doing so, but with their parents being 'speed is good!' its not working.

What are people's thoughts on crow hopping, and for those that are against it, can you give me some more arguments to counter-act the parents with for next season? (I'll be doing a pitching/catching bi-monthly clinic. I can't commit enough to coach a team by myself but I'm sick of watching too many girls get taught crap mechanics that I have to do something)

 

[Lozza]

Simillar. What they're teaching is like a hop. So to get them to start it, they had the girls standing in pitching position, step then hop on the other leg.

 

[Renntiger]

This is the relevant 2010-2013 rule change taken from the ISF website:

Rule 1 Section 20
Sec. 20. CROW HOP. (FP ONLY)
A Crow hop is defined as the act of a pitcher who does not push off from the pitcher's plate to
deliver the ball. The pitcher steps off from the plate and then establishes a second impetus (or
starting point) and pushes off from the new starting point and completes the delivery. (THIS IS
AN ILLEGAL ACT) NOTE: The pitcher may leap, from the pitcher’s plate, land and with a
continuous motion deliver the ball to the plate. The pivot foot may push off and/or follow
through with this continuous action and this is not considered a crow hop.
Comment: Amendments to the pitching rule allow the pitcher to leap, land, follow through with a
continuous motion and release the ball, Upon landing, the pivot may push off or follow through as part of
this continuous action.

The "comment" section certainly makes it sound as though the crow-hop as we normally understand it (characterized by the landing and secondary push-off of the pivot leg, arguably as part of a continuous action, as shown in BM's video clip) is now completely legal per ISF rules. The only thing that remains illegal is the taking of a deliberate extra step off of the plate prior to the push-off, which we would normally associate with a "walk-through" type of motion rather than a crow hop.

I wonder if this change would ever be adopted by the ASA. So many girls crow hop already anyway; it would be like raising the speed limit on a highway where half of the motorists were routinely ignoring the existing signs and taking their chances with the cops. The change would certainly make the umpire's job a lot easier, given that unlike the cops, who indirectly benefit from the tickets they write, these umpires don't stand to gain anything (except grief and vitriol) by calling illegal pitches.

The only people short-changed by this are the girls who worked hard to keep their motion legal under current rules, who may now find themselves at a disadvantage vis a vis the suddenly legal crow-hoppers. If ASA adopts the ISF definition of a crow-hop, those extra three feet of pitching distance imposed on high school pitchers could be partially erased if all the girls who don't crow-hop now start to incorporate a huge hop and replant into their foot work, like many male pitchers do.

As far as safety concerns go, my guess is that crow-hopping is a bit rough on the hip and (especially) the knee of the pivot leg due to the violent twisting action between the external rotation of the leg prior to its landing and the internal rotation of the secondary push-off post landing (as seen in BM’s video clip, and discussed at some length in an older thread), but maybe those who are successful at it know how to do it safely, as it’s really not all that different from a crow-hopping overhand throw in terms of footwork. My limited observation has been that girls who crow-hop do so instinctively; many aren’t even aware of what is going on with their legs; which would suggest that it’s a more natural motion than the classic leap-&-drag. To these girls, taking away that secondary push and replacing it with a foot drag is like asking them to box with one hand tied behind their back. That tied hand can now be legally untied, as long as the game is played according to the ISF rule book, at least through 2013.

 

[3DD'sDAD]

I currently have to "leapers" on my squad of 16U players. Both are first year and throw pretty well. Neither of them replant to throw the pitch, but use a continuous motion. The push off of the pitchers plate brings their body forward such that their pivot foot also leaves the plate when their stride foot is extended at its maximum. The pivot foot touches about 8" in front of the plate at or about the same time as the stride foot touches down. The pivot foot doesn't leave the ground by much so I don't know if woudl be perceived to be a replant by the home plate umpire, but I'm sure that if a complaint was made, the base ump may be able to see it. I don't know if they would call it though as there is no advantage gained. I have tried the paper under the pivot foot, and the "three tap" drill that sluggers suggested to help keep them back plus a few others. Both pitchers have reduced their leap, but continue to have both feet "in the air" for a split second which is illegal in the strict interpretation of the rules.

Any more suggestions on how to change this?

As far as arguments against crow hopping, the biggest argument I see is that different pitchers will be releasing the ball at different distances. The taller pitchers will gain a huge advantage while the shorter or average height pitchers will gain less, but an advantage none the less. If the ISF doesn't see a problem with crow hopping, apparently supporting reducing the distance between pitcher and batter, then simply move the pitchers plate closer to the batter and only allow a step style of pitching. That way, all pitchers would be releasing the ball at relatively the same distance from the batter. It sounds kind of crazy when you consider what is going on in North America with moving the pitchers "back" further from the batters to increase offence in the game. But because Australia is on the other side of the world, perhaps an opposite take on things is normal? ;-)

 

[Lozza]

But because Australia is on the other side of the world, perhaps an opposite take on things is normal? ;-)

Defentitly.

Then again you really don't want to get me started on softball over here at the momenet. In my current state (Western Australia) we have under 14s T-ball. Yes, you read that right. Its only in WA thankfully, but it kills me. Most of the girls at my association don't turn their bodies at all. Its really heart-breaking to watch at times. Its why next season I'll be doing a pitching/catching clinic so I can at least help my club's girls be the best they can be.

I know the ISF has now made leaping/crow hopping legal, but I'm having a very hard time seeing the benefit from it. Even the A grade pitchers at my local comp who've incorporated it have lost a lot of consistency. It seems to have been rushed into styles without much thought and I just don't understand why.

Quick question, just from reading this website, in America and Canada do women not play competitive softball past high school? (excluding college of course) I'm 26 and I still play at a high level and we have state league and what not over here which are generally women in their 20s and 30s playing. Fastpitch is defentitly still alive here though it does get slower the lower you go.

 

[3DD'sDAD]

Yes women play competitive ball in their 20's and 30's, at least in Canada. A friend of mine's wife was named top pitcher in Eastern Canada a couple years ago at the age of 26. It is very competitive at that age. There is a professional league for women in the US that is also very competitive, but the american posters on this site can give much more detail. It is a great game and as long as you can play, most people, men and women continue as long as they can.