Change Up with IR/BI

[corlay]

please consider this:
1. ALL pitches utilize IR*. (yes, even "hello elbow" pitchers...)
2. For a Change-up, the important thing is WHEN IR occurs.

To take velocity away from the pitch, IR needs to occur a lot earlier than with, say, a drop ball or fastball.

With "fast" pitches, IR is delayed as long as possible, to occur just before release (rapid sequence: IR>>humerus deceleration>>forearm pronation/acceleration>>finger-pressure/release).

With "slow" pitches, IR is rushed to occur earlier in the sequence, usually just after the ball clears the top of the arm circle (12:00). This makes it very difficult to achieve any amount of significant "arm whip" and thus yields a slower pitch.

* = IR, or "internal rotation" describes the pronation of the humerus (or "upper arm").

 

[fanboi22]

please consider this:
1. ALL pitches utilize IR*. (yes, even "hello elbow" pitchers...)
2. For a Change-up, the important thing is WHEN IR occurs.

To take velocity away from the pitch, IR needs to occur a lot earlier than with, say, a drop ball or fastball.

With "fast" pitches, IR is delayed as long as possible, to occur just before release (rapid sequence: IR>>humerus deceleration>>forearm pronation/acceleration>>finger-pressure/release).

With "slow" pitches, IR is rushed to occur earlier in the sequence, usually just after the ball clears the top of the arm circle (12:00). This makes it very difficult to achieve any amount of significant "arm whip" and thus yields a slower pitch.

* = IR, or "internal rotation" describes the pronation of the humerus (or "upper arm").

Thanks Corlay. I guess i am still missing the cue, or the change in 'mechanics' or 'timing' that needs to happen to allow IR to happen earlier in the sequence. When the drive starts and the ball hand goes out, is it in a different orientation? does the lower half start later? It hasn't worked just to try and tell DD to 'do it earlier' and rush the IR. She end up throwing alot more faster balls than intended because her hand isn't getting to the correct release point.

Unlike the curve ball, where she picked up very easily (larger hands than most) to just cup under the ball and allow the fingers to pull around the outside of the ball, the change is trickier. If it were 'just' a grip change that would make it easy.

Thanks.

 

[corlay]

Thanks Corlay. I guess i am still missing the cue, or the change in 'mechanics' or 'timing' that needs to happen to allow IR to happen earlier in the sequence.

It's very simple.
Think of it like this:

1. For fast pitches, the delay in IR generally translates to the palm/ball facing the catcher as it passes over the top (12:00 position) and to the sky when the arm is directly behind you (9:00 position) in the arm circle. This is the "let IR happen" position we want to get to, to elicit good "arm whip" and acceleration into ball release.

2. for slow pitches, you want to rush IR in the sense that you are turning your humerus bone inward toward the body a lot earlier than on fast pitches. Usually, as the arm passes over the top in the arm circle (12:00 position) the palm/ball is still facing the catcher , and then that rushed IR will get the palm/ball to start facing the ground by the 9:00 position. From 9:00 to release (6:00 position), since IR has already occurred, the ball should be about even with (or even ahead of) the elbow coming down. Some say it's a "shove" or a "push" as opposed to a lag/whip. That is a good way to think about it and try to feel it.

once that part of the sequence is down, then you can start to experiment with hand/finger positions at release, and various grips. If you can master a change that is spinning like mad (25-30rps) and is still only about 80% of fastball velocity, then you really have a deadly pitch. The high revs really help to fool a batter that a fast pitch is on the way.

For a good change up, deception is the key, so other than what I described above, you definitely do not want to change anything about stride, timing, hand position on the upswing, etc. You want that change up motion to look just like a fastball, until its not.
(Here is an awesome thread by javasource from several years back, perfectly illustrating my point:

A Telltale Game...

Was watching a game last evening... and figured the good people at DFP might offer their help to a freshman pitcher for Texas, Erica Wright. She's a talented kid, no doubt... but when watching her pitch... it became quite evident that she has a significant TELL while pitching. Now, you can...

www.discussfastpitch.com

)

 

[fanboi22]

It's very simple.
Think of it like this:

1. For fast pitches, the delay in IR generally translates to the palm/ball facing the catcher as it passes over the top (12:00 position) and to the sky when the arm is directly behind you (9:00 position) in the arm circle. This is the "let IR happen" position we want to get to, to elicit good "arm whip" and acceleration into ball release.

2. for slow pitches, you want to rush IR in the sense that you are turning your humerus bone inward toward the body a lot earlier than on fast pitches. Usually, as the arm passes over the top in the arm circle (12:00 position) the palm/ball is still facing the catcher , and then that rushed IR will get the palm/ball to start facing the ground by the 9:00 position. From 9:00 to release (6:00 position), since IR has already occurred, the ball should be about even with (or even ahead of) the elbow coming down. Some say it's a "shove" or a "push" as opposed to a lag/whip. That is a good way to think about it and try to feel it.

once that part of the sequence is down, then you can start to experiment with hand/finger positions at release, and various grips. If you can master a change that is spinning like mad (25-30rps) and is still only about 80% of fastball velocity, then you really have a deadly pitch. The high revs really help to fool a batter that a fast pitch is on the way.

For a good change up, deception is the key, so other than what I described above, you definitely do not want to change anything about stride, timing, hand position on the upswing, etc. You want that change up motion to look just like a fastball, until its not.
(Here is an awesome thread by javasource from several years back, perfectly illustrating my point:

A Telltale Game...

Was watching a game last evening... and figured the good people at DFP might offer their help to a freshman pitcher for Texas, Erica Wright. She's a talented kid, no doubt... but when watching her pitch... it became quite evident that she has a significant TELL while pitching. Now, you can...

www.discussfastpitch.com

)

Nice, thanks for the detailed reply. Does someone out there throw a great changeup with 25-30rps?

 

[corlay]

Does someone out there throw a great changeup with 25-30rps?

25-30rps on a change is pretty elite.

There are lots of very successful DI pitchers that don't achieve 30rps on ANY of their pitches.
A big reason for this is often times, if a kid gets the most rps possible, it's tough to also maintain top velocity.
(see where I'm going with this?)

But I know for a fact that young 14U+ age pitchers CAN achieve 30rps on a pitch.
I've seen it many times.
Usually, it's a kid learning the riseball.
It's common to get a handle on the axis and spin rate, but then the challenge is to now maintain all of that AND throw it 55+.
(see where I'm going with this?)

 

[fanboi22]

25-30rps on a change is pretty elite.

There are lots of very successful DI pitchers that don't achieve 30rps on ANY of their pitches.
A big reason for this is often times, if a kid gets the most rps possible, it's tough to also maintain top velocity.
(see where I'm going with this?)

But I know for a fact that young 14U+ age pitchers CAN achieve 30rps on a pitch.
I've seen it many times.
Usually, it's a kid learning the riseball.
It's common to get a handle on the axis and spin rate, but then the challenge is to now maintain all of that AND throw it 55+.
(see where I'm going with this?)

I think I get where you are going. However I have just never heard that more spin equates to slower speeds. If more spin on the change is the key to a better change then that is different than the way we are going. I get it, but I don’t get it. Get it? Haha. Just trying to be funny.

 

[Ken B]

Nice, thanks for the detailed reply. Does someone out there throw a great changeup with 25-30rps?

Yes—even 30+ RPS. (See riseball...)

 

[fanboi22]

Yes—even 30+ RPS. (See riseball...)

I guess I get that. The rise has a ton of spin and speed. But on a CU how do you get a ton of spin and no speed? I think I may have said that the wrong way in my last post.

Would the affect of more spin less speed more like a drop ball? As you wouldn’t want a CU hanging up in the zone with riseball spin.

 

[Ken B]

I guess I get that. The rise has a ton of spin and speed. But on a CU how do you get a ton of spin and no speed? I think I may have said that the wrong way in my last post.

Would the affect of more spin less speed more like a drop ball? As you wouldn’t want a CU hanging up in the zone with riseball spin.

An off-speed drop (rollover with the ball coming off he pinky finger) is the closest you can get to this, but the RPS isn't huge. Any change up where the last finger comes up the back of the ball is also good, but not going to get huge RPS. The key these is taking speed off and getting 12/6 spin.

 

[fanboi22]

An off-speed drop (rollover with the ball coming off he pinky finger) is the closest you can get to this, but the RPS isn't huge. Any change up where the last finger comes up the back of the ball is also good, but not going to get huge RPS. The key these is taking speed off and getting 12/6 spin.

It seems my DD’s spin on her ‘flip’ where she releases it more like the cup of water is more 2-8 or 3-9 left to right as the catcher see it. Only a couple rotations but speed has got to be 60-70% of fastball. And to me the speed would be more important. I am assuming it is hard to get any movement on a slow pitch like that anyway.