breaking pitches for young pitchers

[CoachFP]

Coach, I actually agree with you completely on your first statement.



Most kids pitching in travel ball will never develop a movement pitch. A few will develop 1 or 2 and even fewer will be good enough (or desire) to continue on to college ball.

Your last statement is flawed IMO...



...and only pertains to the kids that will never have the capacity to develop a movement pitch.

You are correct. The ones that can do it should do it.

 

[Dusty]

Most kids shouldn't learn learn breaking pitches until they have good mechanics in their non-breaking pitches. There is a significant difference between "learning" a pitch and "having" a pitch. What and how a kid learns a breaking pitch depends on the student and the knowledge of the instructor and most travel pitchers are incapable of throwing true movement pitches.

I completely agree with all of these statements and probably any others I may have missed but I didn't start this thread with those replies in mind.

In regard to teaching breaking (or simply "movement") pitches:

What worked for some kids but not others and why?

How old were the kids you taught and to what extent was their age a factor?

Did you try to teach kids things that didn't work and how difficult was it to undo and re-teach a different way? (I realize it's probably wishfull thinking to get a well known pitching instructor to admit to making a teaching mistake on a web forum but it can't hurt to ask)

Thanks,

Dusty

 

[halskinner]

Most kids shouldn't learn learn breaking pitches until they have good mechanics in their non-breaking pitches. There is a significant difference between "learning" a pitch and "having" a pitch. What and how a kid learns a breaking pitch depends on the student and the knowledge of the instructor and most travel pitchers are incapable of throwing true movement pitches.

I completely agree with all of these statements and probably any others I may have missed but I didn't start this thread with those replies in mind.

In regard to teaching breaking (or simply "movement") pitches:

What worked for some kids but not others and why?

How old were the kids you taught and to what extent was their age a factor?

Did you try to teach kids things that didn't work and how difficult was it to undo and re-teach a different way? (I realize it's probably wishfull thinking to get a well known pitching instructor to admit to making a teaching mistake on a web forum but it can't hurt to ask)

Thanks,

Dusty

This is going to offend alot of instructors out there but I really don't care. I am not singling out anyone, instructor, coach or poster but here goes.


OK this one just hit a pet peeve with me.

"Most kids shouldn't learn learn breaking pitches until they have good mechanics in their non-breaking pitches."

I agree with that also, however

That exact statement is widely used by instructor's as a sales pitch and it's a load of crap when used for that. Some instructors will actually tell the parents that they will focus ONLY on the correct mechanics for the fastball the first year, it takes that long for them to 'Master' a pitch. THEN, they will ONLY focus on the change up for the next year. THEN, they will focus on the dropball the next year. All these pitches take a year to 'Master'???

If it takes an instructor a year to get good mechanics and accuracy for a fastball,,, run - do not walk, to another instructor. This one is just trying to keep you coming as long as possible. And, when everyone gets frustrated for the lack of progress after 6 months and they walk, "She had potential but they were not willing to put in the time it takes." BULLCRAP!

If I ever told any of my student's parents that, they would have tarred and feathered me the first week! It all depends on the instructor's knowledge and the methods they use to teach a kid at whatever age the kid is.

Sometimes, it is best to go to trying a movement pitch that the pitcher starts throwing ON ACCIDENT, no matter what their age.

Example; I would be working with a student on starting to learn, let's say, a peel drop. All of a sudden, her peel drop would start giving a nice down- and -in movement as her hand was allowing the ball to come off the area between the thumb and index finger instead of off the fingertips as we were trying for. After a few of those I would stop and ask her if she is seeing the ball do that down-and-in every few pitches. If Dad was catching, he would confirm it. Once I was sure she WAS seeing that movement, then we stopped and we started working on that, the down and in. "OK. you are doing it nicely on accident. Now we are going to do some things to make it even better and see what it does ON PUPOSE".

We would work on their fastball, change up AND the down-and-in the next few sessions. I would make simple adjustments to their grip and their follow through for that pitch. They would normally get so excited about seeing one of their pitches actually break and break well, they would ONLY want to work on that one and we had to talk about having to work on the others too.

I have seen many instructors philosophy on teaching that would conflict with what I did. They have a set game plan for every beginning pitcher and what pitches they learn and what the next one will be and so on. They never deviate from that plan and sometimes they will say it takes up to a full year to learn each one. That is a huge red flag for me.

Ever go to a chiropractor who says "Yes, I can fix you up it but it will take 10 visits". Well, if the Chiropractor does not at least make you feel ALOT better by the end of the 2nd visit, seeya!

If a young pitcher does not see big improvements in the first month, she will get frustrated and probably NOT want to continue.

To say most travel pitchers are incapable of throwing true movement pitches, that sounds like an instructor that is incapable of teaching those pitches and is just trying to come up with justification for stringing the parent's checkbook along.

 

[CoachFP]

I stand by what I said about most girls being incapable of throwing movement pitches that really move. An instructor is doing a disservice to the kid and the parent by not getting the mechanics down first before trying to get them to throw all kinds of pitches. I think a program should fit the kid and not be a cookie cutter thing. I see too many kids that try to throw too many pitches and can't command any of them. And believe it or not, some get to college and pitch there. That doesn't mean that they were training correctly. With the number of girls pitching today, I would expect more than just a handful of "elite" pitchers in this country. There are only in my opinion about 7-8 that stand out from the crowd. The rest of them have poor mechanics and approaches to pitching, whether they are D1 or not.

 

[mad hornet]

I have been told by both a pitching coach and a doctor that girls should not be throwing breaking balls (curve, rise, screw, or drop - other than the peel drop) until they reach puberty. I can't get really medical here, but something to do with growth plates and bone development and the repetitive twisting motion causing permanent damage to the arm.

I know this is true for baseball pitchers and it stands to reason with girls as well in fastpitch. I'm surprised no one is talking about this. Most 12U players aren't ready for this and 10U is out of the question.

As a coach in 10U, if I have a pitcher with command of her fastball and change-up, well I'm just tickled.

 

[Mark H]

What you "know" about baseball pitchers is actually far from consensus.

 

[calgofo]

What you "know" about baseball pitchers is actually far from consensus.

Agreed. The same could be said of FP pitching instructors and doctors as well.

 

[mad hornet]

I trust the word of a doctor over any consensus. A lot of consensuses are flat-out wrong. Are you certain enough to risk it with your kid? I am not.

However, I would love to hear from other experts on this. If this is a dangerous thing people should know.

 

[Mark H]

I trust the word of a doctor over any consensus.

What I said was, there is NO consensus.

A lot of consensuses are flat-out wrong.

Yeah. Al Gore is getting that lesson.

Are you certain enough to risk it with your kid? I am not.

Will you let your kid drive as a teenager? Date? Life is risks. Anyone at any age striving to perform athletics at their genetic potential, or even much lower, is risking injury. What is reasonable varies with the player and is a personal and family decision.

 

[mad hornet]

Funny you mention Al Gore. That was exactly what I was thinking.

I don't see your driving analogy as being applicable however. This isn't the same IMO. If a doctor who specializes in bones tells me that I'll screw my kid's arm up by having her throw those pitches, it goes more from a risk to a certainty. Personally I trust the guy.

I also think a pitcher at 10 and 12U can be effective enough with a commanding fastball and change-up, maybe a peel drop and / or knuckle, that those other movement pitches aren't necessary. Most 10U pitchers I've seen have enough trouble with a change-up anyway.