breaking pitches for young pitchers

[Mark H]

I'd tell you teenagers driving is a LOT more dangerous in a much bigger way than throwing bb curve balls at 12. Given the level of STD's in teenagers I'd tell you sending them out on a date is a riskier proposition than early breaking pitches. You make your own call but it's as much an emotional decision as anything given our lack of risk averse behavior in other areas. I'm just telling you if you keep digging you will find no consensus. Many believe overuse based on the tendency to play bb and fp year round along with the tendency for bb pitchers to throw too little and pitch too much is the large factor. But I really don't mind if you are conservative with your kid. My concern ends with the notification that there are other opinions.

 

[halskinner]

*sigh* ok, I'll try this again...

This isn't a "how do I teach my 10 and 12 yo dd's to throw breaking pitches?" thread. It is a "how (technique) do you teach young (anything under 21) pitchers to throw breaking pitches?"

As far as the family doctor's advice, I'd give a lot more credibility to the advice of a specialist than I would my family practice pediatrician who I trust with the overall health of my dd's.

Most instructors dont focus on movement pitches at the 10u level because of the simple fact the 10" ball is known for little to no movement because of the flat seams, as compared to the 12 inch ball. However, there are always pitchers that are the exception to the rule.

If your doctor is ucing information about baseball pitcher's injuries and trying to apply those to windmill, he is misinformed. The force generated at release are nearly the same, but the motions are completely different. Unless your doctor was a fastpitch pitcher himself/herself, they are taking the 'safest statement' route.

There are several ways to teach and throw, let's say, a curveball. Depending on the age of the pitcher, the size of the ball, the strength and hand size of the pitcher themselves, the training technique can be very different, depending on the type of curveball being taught.

One curveball can be VERY difficult and stressful to the arm, elbow and wrist. Another one is no more stressful any body part than 'Flicking a boogar off the end of your thumb'. Pardon that analogy but two of my 11-year-old students gave it that name and description many years ago.

 

[fastpitch]

Dusty -

Just speaking from my very limited experience. This could all be wrong, but it's what we experienced and seems to make sense.

My daughter is 10 (pitching 12" ball) and has been with a regular pitching coach for about 1.5 years now. Her PC started with just the basic straight fastball mechanics. Once she was throwing strikes with the fastball at probably a greater than 50% ratio she started learning a change. She still threw only fastballs in games and just practiced the change until she could throw a reasonable change (strike or close) probably at least 50% of the time as well. After she had reasonable mastery of fastball and change; she started working the corners.

Within the past few months she has begun learning a screwball and curve. Her PC taught her the screwball first. It was explained to me the screwball was taught first not because it is a better or more common pitch (she's a RH pitcher) but more because it was easier to teach it off of her fastball mechanics. After a few weeks of that she started the curve into the rotation of pitches. While she is learning these breaking pitches her instructor keeps going back to the fastball and change to make sure some of the things from the screw or curve don't seep into her fastball or changeup mechanics.

It might be my imagination but I do feel as though she has lost a little velocity on her fastball now that she has started working on the movement pitches, but I havent put a gun on her to measure... I may do that next time.

So that's my experience on how my DD's PC started teaching breaking pitches to her. Now I'm curious about how other PC's started teaching movement pitches to their students.

 

[mad hornet]

Most instructors dont focus on movement pitches at the 10u level because of the simple fact the 10" ball is known for little to no movement because of the flat seams, as compared to the 12 inch ball. However, there are always pitchers that are the exception to the rule.

If your doctor is ucing information about baseball pitcher's injuries and trying to apply those to windmill, he is misinformed. The force generated at release are nearly the same, but the motions are completely different. Unless your doctor was a fastpitch pitcher himself/herself, they are taking the 'safest statement' route.

There are several ways to teach and throw, let's say, a curveball. Depending on the age of the pitcher, the size of the ball, the strength and hand size of the pitcher themselves, the training technique can be very different, depending on the type of curveball being taught.

One curveball can be VERY difficult and stressful to the arm, elbow and wrist. Another one is no more stressful any body part than 'Flicking a boogar off the end of your thumb'. Pardon that analogy but two of my 11-year-old students gave it that name and description many years ago.

It isn't the windmill the doc was referring to. It is the twisting motion of the forearm / elbow that is the problem for young (pre-pubescent) players.

 

[mad hornet]

Dusty -

Just speaking from my very limited experience. This could all be wrong, but it's what we experienced and seems to make sense.

My daughter is 10 (pitching 12" ball) and has been with a regular pitching coach for about 1.5 years now. Her PC started with just the basic straight fastball mechanics. Once she was throwing strikes with the fastball at probably a greater than 50% ratio she started learning a change. She still threw only fastballs in games and just practiced the change until she could throw a reasonable change (strike or close) probably at least 50% of the time as well. After she had reasonable mastery of fastball and change; she started working the corners.

Within the past few months she has begun learning a screwball and curve. Her PC taught her the screwball first. It was explained to me the screwball was taught first not because it is a better or more common pitch (she's a RH pitcher) but more because it was easier to teach it off of her fastball mechanics. After a few weeks of that she started the curve into the rotation of pitches. While she is learning these breaking pitches her instructor keeps going back to the fastball and change to make sure some of the things from the screw or curve don't seep into her fastball or changeup mechanics.

It might be my imagination but I do feel as though she has lost a little velocity on her fastball now that she has started working on the movement pitches, but I havent put a gun on her to measure... I may do that next time.

So that's my experience on how my DD's PC started teaching breaking pitches to her. Now I'm curious about how other PC's started teaching movement pitches to their students.

In the case of my ten year old she's been pitching since she was 8. She went to a pitching coach who progressed her from fastball to change-up same as yours. One day last year (age 9 at the time) her pitching coach decided it was time to learn the screwball. DD was all excited and was throwing it rather well in lessons and in the yard.

At her next game, we told her head coach (who is also a nurse at the Children's Hospital here in Columbus) that she now has a screwball. She (the head coach) also worked with the pitchers on this team and called all the pitches during the game. She informed us that DD should stop throwing that pitch immediately for reasons already discussed as she had also discussed this with doctors at Children's. She was the coach so we didn't argue.

Coincidentally, dd was starting to complain of pain in her elbow after pitching the screwball. As soon as we stopped with the screwball, her pain stopped completely. Now she was the ace pitcher for her team and pitched at least 50% of the innings they played last year.

Later during the season, I was seeing my doctor (bone and joint specialist) about trouble I have in my shoulder. I was wondering if we were fed a load of BS about her being too young to throw the screwball so I asked him. He confirmed exactly what her coach told us.

Sorry for the hijack Dusty but I think this needs to be aired out.

 

[fastpitch]

In the case of my ten year old she's been pitching since she was 8. She went to a pitching coach who progressed her from fastball to change-up same as yours. One day last year (age 9 at the time) her pitching coach decided it was time to learn the screwball. DD was all excited and was throwing it rather well in lessons and in the yard.

At her next game, we told her head coach (who is also a nurse at the Children's Hospital here in Columbus) that she now has a screwball. She (the head coach) also worked with the pitchers on this team and called all the pitches during the game. She informed us that DD should stop throwing that pitch immediately for reasons already discussed as she had also discussed this with doctors at Children's. She was the coach so we didn't argue.

Coincidentally, dd was starting to complain of pain in her elbow after pitching the screwball. As soon as we stopped with the screwball, her pain stopped completely. Now she was the ace pitcher for her team and pitched at least 50% of the innings they played last year.

Later during the season, I was seeing my doctor (bone and joint specialist) about trouble I have in my shoulder. I was wondering if we were fed a load of BS about her being too young to throw the screwball so I asked him. He confirmed exactly what her coach told us.

Sorry for the hijack Dusty but I think this needs to be aired out.

Just curious. How often did your DD throw the screw? My DD hasn't complained of pain yet, but she only throws it maybe 10 times out of 100 pitches during any practice session. She probably also wouldn't throw it in a game yet. Just not good enough at it to validate throwing it.

I imagine there are different ways of teaching it that cause more stress than others as well. But I really don't know enough to say.

 

[mad hornet]

It only went on for a week or so before her coach shut it down. We were probably throwing a lot more than ten though during a session - after all she was trying to gain command of it.

It wasn't a lot of pain, but it was the only time since she's been pitching that she complained of soreness in her elbow. At the time I wondered if she was just pitching too much but it completely went away when she stopped practicing the screwball.

There may be other ways to throw this pitch that don't require any arm twisting but I figure at that age if she has command of the CU and FB she can be very effective without the breaking stuff. How many 10U pitchers can be confident enough to start the count with a change up or even throw it with 3-2? I have gotten a few laughs at the dumbfounded looks from umpires the times she's been able to pull it off with success as a 9 YO. Most kids I see at that age throwing the change will only do it on 0-2 and it becomes very predictable.

 

[Dusty]

No problem mad hornet, actually yours and fastpitch's posts on this page are worthy contributions to the discussion.

I tend to think that it may be more the way a pitch is taught than the pitch itself that can cause problems and you were right to have your kids stop throwing those pitches when they started to cause pain.

 

[Mark H]

I tend to think that it may be more the way a pitch is taught than the pitch itself that can cause problems and you were right to have your kids stop throwing those pitches when they started to cause pain.

No doubt. There are ways for a boy or girl to throw breaking pitches that will hurt them right quick. That and over use would be where I'd look for a problem.

 

[Jojo]

I'm one of those instructors that won't let a kid throw screw/curve/rise until they are older, and have good control of the fastball/change/drop.

I have had parents take their kids to other instructors when I would not show them a breaking pitch at 10U, the latest one was a student whose parents wanted her to throw a drop at age 9.
She was only about 40% fastball control and even less at change-up. They went as far as to take her to another PC to teach her the drop then would come to my class and have her throw it, waiting for me to come over and help her on it. I do not have her anymore

I never understand why parents feel that a breaking pitch is important when the student cannot even throw a fastball with control or any velocity?

I agree some students may never be able to throw a breaking pitch, whether through not being physically capable and also mentally capable. I cannot tell you how many students I have that insist they "cannot" do something.

If you have a DD or a student that can handle it, or is naturally doing something that is not harmful--go ahead and encourage it.
My own DD broke her pitching wrist at 11yrs, when she came back to pitch she cradled the ball more and began to throw a rise, her PC insisted that she stop, but one of his assistants told her to keep doing it.

We listened to the asst, and she developed a very nice rise by 12. By college she was a rise/screwball pitcher, but could throw anything if needed.