ASA - What, if any, are the appeal options

[Umpire]

http://www.stevetheump.com/changing_calls.htm

 

[Ajaywill]

Great....you have provided a case play and interpretation for NCAA, and from a baseball site.

Since the title of this thread referenced ASA....neither of those are applicable as an authoritive source for that organization and rule set.

While I agree with you in principle that a JUDGEMENT call of fair or foul SHOULD NOT be changed, a call due to a misinterpretation of a rule should be changed if properly protested. The situation presented in the OP is a rule misinterpretation as to the definition of a foul ball.

 

[Umpire]

I have to see if there is something else in ASA. However, even if there isn't, don't pigeon-hole yourself with ASA interpretations only. When something is not specifically covered, go to other authoritative resources to help make a proper ruling. That's often how associations come to change rules or add rules. It is ignorant to ignore outside authority and precedent.

 

[MTR]

Great....you have provided a case play and interpretation for NCAA, and from a baseball site.

And Carl Childress of all people. The person holds an ultimate disdain for the game of softball and accepts conversations for the sole purpose of disparaging the game and the umpires who work it. IOW, IMO, POS.

Since the title of this thread referenced ASA....neither of those are applicable as an authoritive source for that organization and rule set.

While I agree with you in principle that a JUDGEMENT call of fair or foul SHOULD NOT be changed, a call due to a misinterpretation of a rule should be changed if properly protested. The situation presented in the OP is a rule misinterpretation as to the definition of a foul ball.

And you have two options:

Protest means you start from the point of the misinterpretation and do it again;
or a UIC may rule that the immediate put out by the catcher was not affected by the erroneous ruling of the umpire and allow that out to stay in the books. However, anything after that could very well been affected by the foul call, so you rule R1 out and award BR 1st base.

Is it a compromise? Yep, but that is why the UIC is there. If there is a protest committee in place, that protest can still be heard immediate after the game, but the game moves on with the UIC's ruling

 

[MTR]

I have to see if there is something else in ASA. However, even if there isn't, don't pigeon-hole yourself with ASA interpretations only. When something is not specifically covered, go to other authoritative resources to help make a proper ruling. That's often how associations come to change rules or add rules. It is ignorant to ignore outside authority and precedent.

You mean like throwing at a retired runner's head to draw and INT call and the powers that be okay that even though the rule reads otherwise?

Playing follow the leader is not always healthy since the priorities of different organizations vary.

 

[Umpire]

Here is one state interpretation for ASA. I don't see anything from the home office, though.

Situation: R1 on 1st. Batter lays down a bunt and the ball has a lot of back spin. The bat is dropped on the ground and the ball spins back into it striking it and remaining in fair territory. The plate umpire calls and signals Dead Ball and declares the batter out because there was contact between the bat and ball. The coach on offense comes out to argue that the batter cannot be out as the ball came back at the bat – not the other way around. The plate umpire realizes that maybe they made a mistake on rule interpretation and brings all partners together. They confirm that the rule is the ball remains live when the ball rolls against a bat and that it is only an out when the bat rolls or is moving against the ball. The plate umpire must now reverse the call but….what are they to do with the play once the ball has been declared dead? The batter hasn’t reached 1st and the defense definitely had a possible play on the batter! Has this play put the defense in jeopardy? Has this play put the offense in jeopardy? What can our umpires do to make the situation right?

Ruling: Even though both teams have been put at jeopardy and the umpire initially got it wrong, THERE IS NO PROVISION in softball for a DO OVER. Once that ball has been hit we must deal with the play and the fact that once we kill the play we can not rule outs except in very specific instances (interference). The umpire did apply the wrong rule to this situation but that can be corrected. What cannot happen is anyone being ruled out on the play. Unfortunately, the umpires are only left with a very awkward alternative of reversing the original misinterpretation of the rule and then, since the ball was killed, awarding the batter 1st base and moving up any runners that were forced to move because of the batter now occupying 1st base. Now, the Coach on defense is going to be VERY upset with this. The only thing the plate umpire can do is fall on the sword and say it was their mistake but that is the only ruling that can be made. Someone may go to the showers on this call.

Rule 10, Section 3C does not apply in this type of situation even though it appears to do so by definition.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

And Carl Childress of all people. The person holds an ultimate disdain for the game of softball and accepts conversations for the sole purpose of disparaging the game and the umpires who work it. IOW, IMO, POS.

Wow, Carl really got under your skin. Yes, umpires are POS when they disrespect others...

NSA game yesterday, I asked the base umpire about it and he basically said runner just goes to side where fielder is not, and fielder can touch whichever is closer

Consider the source

 

[Umpireernie]

This is a protestable call due to the rule misinterpretation. Home plate is in fair territory and if the ball was first touched in fair territory it is a fair ball. If this is an ASA tournament, there should be a UIC available and a protest must be lodged before the next pitch. The key is making sure the umpire repeats the same statement about the ball being foul because it hit the plate. If the UIC grants the protest and rules the ball fair, now the questions becomes, how do we fix it? From the OP, it sounds as if the play happened fairly quickly, so it seems that a ruling of a double play is the most likely outcome.

Ajay I agree that this could be change to fair ball based on rule misinterp rather than just changing a judgement fair/foul call which of course isn't gonna happen.

But I think calling the double play is a stretch. There is no perfect fix for this sad situation. F2 clearly fielded the ball and made the force at home then play was stopped (in error) by the umpire. Since upon further review the ball is ruled fair I think you can give the defense that out. They actually made the play, it's not in question. But the out on the BR at first takes a larger leap of faith IMO. Maybe they would have made the out. Or maybe F2 makes a throw that sails over F3. Or maybe F2s throw is muffed by F3. Or maybe BR has Natasha Watley speed and beats the throw. If I were UIC I think I would call R3 out, place BR on 1B, advance the other runners because they are forced, 2 outs. Let's play.

The first out is easy we saw it happen, the second out is more of a guess. "Don't guess an out." Just my opinion. Yucky situation no doubt.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

What's the difference between that and judging interference by a runner prevented a double play and calling an additional runner out?

 

[tcannizzo]

<snip>THERE IS NO PROVISION in softball for a DO OVER. <snip>

What do you call the Effect(b) of 4.6.C.8 Unreported Substitute on defense makes a play?
b. Have the last batter return to bat and assume the ball and
strike count. All runners return to the last base occupied prior
to the play.


Seems reasonable to me that, if the protest was upheld, that you can't bring a dead ball back to life, and that the only reasonable fix is a "do over".