Another one for the file.

[Mr T]

No you're not. As the umpire, you have no authority over the fan. period.

Unless obbay misquoted the rule book, which he didn't, it appears the ump does have some authority over the spectator. It's there in black and white.

You can try, but you are in a no-win argument. Real simple, the coach states he was directing HIS/HER runner. You going to call the coach a liar?

LOL. You understand the umpire/coach relationship, right? This isn't a court of law where sides are arguing their cases for a judge or jury to decide. This isn't an "argument" as you put it. The ump makes the call. He doesn't call anyone anything. The coach lives with it, and if he can't, he is off the premises. Pretty basic, really.

Like it or not, the player's have a responsibility to know the game and what they are supposed to do and the coaches job to get them to that point.

Nope. Read the rule again. In fact at a tourney yesterday this type of thing happened. The first base coach started yelling dropped ball on a third strike at 10U in order to confuse our catcher and have her throw down. The ump immediately called the out, the ball dead, and walked down to the coach and explained the rules and gave him a warning.

There is no place in the game, certainly at the younger ages, for fans and coaches being described, or you either if you condone or advocate such behavior.

 

[SoftSocDad]

I've seen this too....and I'm sure it give those "coaches" and "parents" (using those two terms very loosely here!) a tremendous amount of satisfaction that they are just clever enough to outsmart an 8 or 9 year old girl. I'm sure they feel real proud after that! Seriously, I would really like to see ASA and USSSA umpires take better of control of these situations...no warnings, no second chances. you do something like that at a youth softball game - you are gone from the dugout or the stands! no exceptions!

That's a ludicrous assumption, and this thread is filled with them. Watch a few games. More often than not, coaches and parents are yelling at their own players in order to get those players to do what the adults want at that moment. It has nothing to do with trying to confuse the other team. Parents trying to influence umpire calls from the stands is nothing new. Some people just want to be victims, no matter what the situation is.

 

[CoachAl]

Huge difference here SoftSocDad! A player getting confused becuase a parent is yelling at their own kid "throw to 2" from the stands (or something similar - even if she wasn't supposed to throw to 2) is not at all the same thing as a coach from the opposing team shouting something out (not directed at his team) for the sole purpose of trying to get a player on the other team to make a mistake. It does happen! If you not have not seen it for yourself, good for you! Perhaps I shouldn't have been so overly negative. There are very good umpires out there that do not tolerate this type of stuff (as Mr. T described in his post). Absolutely no excuse for it IMO at the younger age levels.

 

[shockcoach]

No you're not. As the umpire, you have no authority over the fan. period.

Fan, no. The game, yes. And that authority is given to the umpire by the rulebook.

You can try, but you are in a no-win argument. Real simple, the coach states he was directing HIS/HER runner. You going to call the coach a liar?

Since when does interference have to be intentional?

Like it or not, the player's have a responsibility to know the game and what they are supposed to do and the coaches job to get them to that point.

To a point. This isn't the MLB and we're talking about 8U games. Last I checked, it takes time to make a kid into a seasoned ballplayer.

 

[Mr T]

That's a ludicrous assumption, and this thread is filled with them.

Well, like coach Al I am glad you haven't seen this. It's not ludicrous at all, sadly, it's a plain reality. I've seen it a number of times already and don't have that long of a tourney track record at all.

In the case I described the coach didn't deny it at all, and in fact sarcastically replied to our dugout when the ump had returned, "We do fake bunts too, is that OK?"

 

[MTR]

Fan, no. The game, yes. And that authority is given to the umpire by the rulebook.

ASA rules apply to participants only. That would be those defined in Rule 4. The only time the rules address spectators is when they interfere with a live ball or the play on a live ball on the field side of the dead ball line.

BTW, I didn't say the umpire couldn't do something about it, s/he just has no authority over the fan.

Since when does interference have to be intentional?

Well, not since 2007. However, coaches are allowed to communicate with their players and if they use language that confuses the other team, that's life. You don't want it to affect your team, teach them better.

To a point. This isn't the MLB and we're talking about 8U games. Last I checked, it takes time to make a kid into a seasoned ballplayer.

No argument. And I have repeatedly stated the 8U ball does not need umpires, they need coaches. However, if you insist on putting an umpire on the field, you can not expect him/her to just turn off the mechanics and rules in which they are trained.

One minute people are complaining that you need to take it easy because it is only 8U and in another breath are complaining that the umpire isn't doing this or that by the rules. Again, the umpire is there for the game, not the teams, parents or players, that is the coaches' position.

You cited the rule, I just told you how it applies.

 

[MTR]

Unless obbay misquoted the rule book, which he didn't, it appears the ump does have some authority over the spectator. It's there in black and white.

obbay didn't quote any rules. However, I am very familiar with the ASA rule book.

You may be referring to Shockcoach's quote:

With the fan, I'm going to rule interference and go with 8.6.L and call the play dead and the BR out. All runners return.

There is no 8.6.L in the ASA rule book. However, there is an 8.5.L which states: "When there is spectator interference with any thrown or fair batted ball". Well, the fan did not interfere with either a thrown or batted ball.

With the coach interfering, I'm going with 8.7.M or 8.7.O and call the runner nearest home plate out.

8.7.M refers to the coach running toward the plate in order to draw a throw to home plate which does not appy here based on the OP. 8.7.O refers to the coach interfering with a throw or batted ball and, again, does not apply here based on the OP. BTW, RS #33 supports both as noted.

LOL. You understand the umpire/coach relationship, right?

Actually, I give a few clinics on Game Management including dealing with coaches.

This isn't a court of law where sides are arguing their cases for a judge or jury to decide. This isn't an "argument" as you put it. The ump makes the call. He doesn't call anyone anything. The coach lives with it, and if he can't, he is off the premises. Pretty basic, really.

Yeah, right. The umpire needs to work with what s/he has and must be very sure before making such a ruling as this. You don't just make a call because you "thought" it could have been interference.

That said, it could be called INT, but I would really have to witness it and be 100% sure the coach's intent (and in this case that is very important) was to interfere.

Nope. Read the rule again. In fact at a tourney yesterday this type of thing happened. The first base coach started yelling dropped ball on a third strike at 10U in order to confuse our catcher and have her throw down. The ump immediately called the out, the ball dead, and walked down to the coach and explained the rules and gave him a warning.

Was it a D3K? Did the runner actually run? Who did the umpire call out? BTW, are you aware that a retired batter running to 1B when not entitled is, by rule, not INT and the catcher and defense is expected to be aware of the game situation. (8.7.P.Note)

There is no place in the game, certainly at the younger ages, for fans and coaches being described, or you either if you condone or advocate such behavior.

Do you actually read the words or just assume you think you know what I mean? The discussion was rules and that was my only concern. BTW, I agree with you, but it isn't the umpire's job to do the dirty work. Your teams, your parents, your coaches. People are going to be idiots no matter what you do.

 

[GOINGDEEP]

Ha, got one for ya. Don't throw a stone because it's all part of the game. Ever been to a MLB game. Thousands of fans yelling at the players.

I've used the behind the screen play. Runner stealing on a WP or PB. Yell at the catcher " no throw.......she's there ". Works pretty good.

 

[Mike]

Was it a D3K? Did the runner actually run? Who did the umpire call out? BTW, are you aware that a retired batter running to 1B when not entitled is, by rule, not INT and the catcher and defense is expected to be aware of the game situation. (8.7.P.Note)

I have been thinking of the bold above. This is a tactic used by alot of coaches, run on strike 3 no matter what. So..... runner on 3rd, batter swings and misses strike 3 and catcher does not drop ball but batter runs to first anyway, catcher throws down and runner on 3rd comes home......I know.... run scores.

But I was told by an umpire that if believed to be intentional to draw a throw from the catcher then interference is called and 3rd base runner is out also.

the catcher and defense is expected to be aware of the game situation

agreed!!

 

[chinamigarden]

I've used the behind the screen play. Runner stealing on a WP or PB. Yell at the catcher " no throw.......she's there ". Works pretty good.

Way to go, great job (sarcasm). There must be no better feeling in life then fooling a child who is playing a game (sarcasm).

Just because you know its something that can't be ruled against, doesn't make it right (not sarcasm).