A Swing Revelation - Capturing and Describing The Top Transition

[Greenmonsters]

This thread represents a progressive follow up to the 'Turning the Barrel' thread and is the offspring of another tech. hitting thread where I was trying to describe to JBooth and Wellphyt the Ahhh Haaa!!! moment at swing start (i.e., or between the load and unload part of the swing) that I experienced and which led to a smoother transition that resulted in a more powerfull swing with seemingly less effort.

My initial attempt to expalin what I thought I was doing, which prompted JB's response copied below, was something along the lines of... I'm talking about turning the barrel with the hands at the very onset of the swing. Hips forward, hands back, then hands rotate clockwise and move the tip of the barrel 12-18" backward toward the catcher (although its still pointing somewhat forward toward the field) causing the elbow to slot. Hips go, shoulders go, hands get to corner and then its time to decide to go/stop. With that little early movement of the barrel, the application of upper body power via the core, shoulders, and arms creates a smoother transition and more powerfull swing... One of the things I notice is that the hand that plays the dominant role in checking the swing NOW is the bottom hand, whereas before it felt like it was more the top hand that was trying to shut the swing down.

I think I follow JB's response below as it pertains to the Bonds clip (a game clip would be better, but this one, w/out helmet so its BP or HR derby, works for now).

I understand the movement you're describing, and it isn't done with the wrists. It's the upper arms. MLB hitters are trying not to dump the barrel during the process you describe. They do that by holding the wrist angle and using the shoulder tilt and change of elbow position (done with the arms).

Bonds is NOT using his wrists here. Can you see the elbows move in synch with the barrel, yet his hand angles never change?

The wrists are locked and the shoulder and elbow position change, moves the barrel. After the elbow gets down, the wrists add force to throw the barrel at the ball.

With no disrespect intended to anybody, and apologizing in advance for my obtuseness, the advice and information presented by ANY and ALL the contributing posters to this site the last 2+ years have failed to capture the movement or feeling sufficiently for me to have understood, felt the desired mechanics, or experienced the results before. Without question, the feel and results I'm experiencing are definitely different. While now somewhere in my late 40s (well maybe 50 actually), I truly believe I now hit the ball harder than I ever did in my teen and early 20s when I was playing BB fairly seriously. Although I don't swing composites, I'm sure part of it is the bat technology, but, IMO, the big part of it is a little swing tweak. And actually it came to light during a clinic when my DD was talking to her catching instructor, who works closely with Tewks, about.......throwing! There's a key movement during the transition, in both throwing and hitting, when something happens that makes a big difference.

What's responsible for the difference? Maybe its because my focus has changed from the standard approach, thinking about moving the arms and slotting the back elbow, to moving the hands from point A to B, which achieves the same result? Or is it too simple to attribute the improvement to the fact that the swing consciously is more of a continuous motion? Obviously I'm struggling to understand and translate the feel to words sufficiently to be able to convey it to others!

Can anybody make better sense of this? Any similar experiences or feels? Any thoughts re the technical aspect, the description of the transition feel, or the conveying or teaching of a frustratingly difficult-to-capture concept? My final thought - it helps if I understand it, but even if I can't, as long as I feel it and repeat it, my swing is still the better for it! For those interested, I suggest keeping an eye on Tewk's AB Athletic Development and CCJR's NECC websites.

 

[jbooth]

This thread represents a progressive follow up to the 'Turning the Barrel' thread and is the offspring of another tech. hitting thread where I was trying to describe to JBooth and Wellphyt the Ahhh Haaa!!! moment at swing start (i.e., or between the load and unload part of the swing) that I experienced and which led to a smoother transition that resulted in a more powerfull swing with seemingly less effort.

My initial attempt to expalin what I thought I was doing, which prompted JB's response copied below, was something along the lines of... I'm talking about turning the barrel with the hands at the very onset of the swing. Hips forward, hands back, then hands rotate clockwise and move the tip of the barrel 12-18" backward toward the catcher (although its still pointing somewhat forward toward the field) causing the elbow to slot. Hips go, shoulders go, hands get to corner and then its time to decide to go/stop. With that little early movement of the barrel, the application of upper body power via the core, shoulders, and arms creates a smoother transition and more powerfull swing... One of the things I notice is that the hand that plays the dominant role in checking the swing NOW is the bottom hand, whereas before it felt like it was more the top hand that was trying to shut the swing down.

I think I follow JB's response below as it pertains to the Bonds clip (a game clip would be better, but this one, w/out helmet so its BP or HR derby, works for now).


With no disrespect intended to anybody, and apologizing in advance for my obtuseness, the advice and information presented by ANY and ALL the contributing posters to this site the last 2+ years have failed to capture the movement or feeling sufficiently for me to have understood, felt the desired mechanics, or experienced the results before. Without question, the feel and results I'm experiencing are definitely different. While now somewhere in my late 40s (well maybe 50 actually), I truly believe I now hit the ball harder than I ever did in my teen and early 20s when I was playing BB fairly seriously. Although I don't swing composites, I'm sure part of it is the bat technology, but, IMO, the big part of it is a little swing tweak. And actually it came to light during a clinic when my DD was talking to her catching instructor, who works closely with Tewks, about.......throwing! There's a key movement during the transition, in both throwing and hitting, when something happens that makes a big difference.

What's responsible for the difference? Maybe its because my focus has changed from the standard approach, thinking about moving the arms and slotting the back elbow, to moving the hands from point A to B, which achieves the same result? Or is it too simple to attribute the improvement to the fact that the swing consciously is more of a continuous motion? Obviously I'm struggling to understand and translate the feel to words sufficiently to be able to convey it to others!

Can anybody make better sense of this? Any similar experiences or feels? Any thoughts re the technical aspect, the description of the transition feel, or the conveying or teaching of a frustratingly difficult-to-capture concept? My final thought - it helps if I understand it, but even if I can't, as long as I feel it and repeat it, my swing is still the better for it! For those interested, I suggest keeping an eye on Tewk's AB Athletic Development and CCJR's NECC websites.

With all due respect, Tewks does not understand HOW it works. He knows the feel and sees the difference between the good and bad, but he doesn't know how the body makes it happen.

 

[Greenmonsters]

With all due respect, Tewks does not understand HOW it works. He knows the feel and sees the difference between the good and bad, but he doesn't know how the body makes it happen.

As I only know what I know, I'm open to input from anyone who takes the time to offer it so no offense taken here. While Tewk's understanding is accurate or not is subject to interpretation, its immaterial to the question that I'm asking. If someone can feel it and explain it well enough to pass it on, then does the reason why it works really matter? Do you have to understand the finer points of an internal combustion engine to drive a car? As FFS would note, the acid test is does it hold up to the Hansen principle.

IMO, if what we're trying to teach our DD's and players is beyond my ability to grasp and implement using the conventionally accepted approach, how can we expect a) ourselves to teach it to others or b) our girls to get it? As I see it, there are 2 components involved in the solution: 1) technical i.e., mechanics and 2) educational i.e., how to teach it. Some of the brightest people I've known are academics that couldn't explain their way out of their ivory towers and made for the worst teachers.

Suggestions or comments?

 

[jbooth]

As I only know what I know, I'm open to input from anyone who takes the time to offer it so no offense taken here. While Tewk's understanding is accurate or not is subject to interpretation, its immaterial to the question that I'm asking. If someone can feel it and explain it well enough to pass it on, then does the reason why it works really matter? Do you have to understand the finer points of an internal combustion engine to drive a car? As FFS would note, the acid test is does it hold up to the Hansen principle.

IMO, if what we're trying to teach our DD's and players is beyond my ability to grasp and implement using the conventionally accepted approach, how can we expect a) ourselves to teach it to others or b) our girls to get it? As I see it, there are 2 components involved in the solution: 1) technical i.e., mechanics and 2) educational i.e., how to teach it. Some of the brightest people I've known are academics that couldn't explain their way out of their ivory towers and made for the worst teachers.

Suggestions or comments?

Well, this forum area is about TECHNICAL stuff. If you want practical, there is a topic area for that.

I'm describing the technicalities.

No, you don't have to know the internal combustion engine to drive a car, but the mechanic/technician does. The coach is the mechanic/technician, the hitter is the driver.

The coach should know the technicalities so he/she can teach the right moves. And I totally agree that the good coaches are the ones who can convey what they know. That, is the challenge, but if you don't know what's right, it doesn't matter how well you convey information. It would be like the car technician setting the tire pressure different from what is technically known to be correct. The driver can't win with bad tire pressure, and a hitter can't do well being taught incorrect fundamentals.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Well, this forum area is about TECHNICAL stuff. If you want practical, there is a topic area for that.

I'm describing the technicalities.

No, you don't have to know the internal combustion engine to drive a car, but the mechanic/technician does. The coach is the mechanic/technician, the hitter is the driver.

The coach should know the technicalities so he/she can teach the right moves. And I totally agree that the good coaches are the ones who can convey what they know. That, is the challenge, but if you don't know what's right, it doesn't matter how well you convey information. It would be like the car technician setting the tire pressure different from what is technically known to be correct. The driver can't win with bad tire pressure, and a hitter can't do well being taught incorrect fundamentals.

Fair enough, JB. Let's keep it to the technical side. Simply put there's something in my swing transition now that was missing before that makes the swing more effortless and effective. Why is that? What is it and how does it happen?

How does the upper body transition from coil to uncoil? Is there a distinct pause between the two or is it continuous? Is there a running start? What role, if any, do the hands play. IMO, looking at video the transition seems more fluid than I see reproduced if the hands and bat retain a fixed angle and are carried along by the upper back, shoulders, and upper arms until they get to the corner. Help me understand what am I missing or not understanding?

Input from other mechanics/technicians is welcome here so jump in.

 

[Steve Huff]

Am I missing something here, and maybe you new school guys can help me out. I don't know, or at least don't use some of the new terminology. But what I see is just a fundamentally good swing.

I see the hands, wrists, and forearms stable and keeping their orientation to the bat. Nothing, no angles change. I thought that was normal? As the elbow slots or connects, the bat head moves backward toward the catcher. The bat head drops toward the top of the strike zone with rotation of back leg, hip, core, and shoulder in the rotation. It is ready to throw the bat! What is different about this? What am I missing that I don't understand? I said, "don't understand", not left out! Please don't go into the "radial dismal orientation to the sub-orbital plexus is" doing this or that. I don't care about it! I just want the basics not the BS. What am I missing? What is more complex than what I said? I am lost in the message and some others! This is just a good looking solid swing to me that expresses natural conditions initiated by a good mechanical swing.

 

[jbooth]

Am I missing something here, and maybe you new school guys can help me out. I don't know, or at least don't use some of the new terminology. But what I see is just a fundamentally good swing.

I see the hands, wrists, and forearms stable and keeping their orientation to the bat. Nothing, no angles change. I thought that was normal? As the elbow slots or connects, the bat head moves backward toward the catcher. The bat head drops toward the top of the strike zone with rotation of back leg, hip, core, and shoulder in the rotation. It is ready to throw the bat! What is different about this? What am I missing that I don't understand? I said, "don't understand", not left out! Please don't go into the "radial dismal orientation to the sub-orbital plexus is" doing this or that. I don't care about it! I just want the basics not the BS. What am I missing? What is more complex than what I said? I am lost in the message and some others! This is just a good looking solid swing to me that expresses natural conditions initiated by a good mechanical swing.

There is a group of people that believe that the bat head moves backward toward the catcher by applying a twisting action with the hands/wrists/forearms. They believe it is not simply part of the back elbow dropping. They believe that you pull the bat head rearward.

Mike Epstein told me that he doesn't believe that. A former MLB player who is a friend of mine, says it doesn't happen. Albert Pujols and many others talk about keeping the barrel UP, so he can't very well be pulling it down.

And best of all; I was fortunate enough to meet Hall of Famer, Orlando Cepeda through a mutual friend. I talked with him for over an hour, and when I told him that some people say that you immediately pull the barrel back, his jaw dropped and he said, "What!? Have these guys ever played?" Meaning at the MLB level. He said that was crazy.

They all talk about "lagging" the barrel, they don't talk about getting it going early.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Lag is important.

 

[Steve Huff]

There is a group of people that believe that the bat head moves backward toward the catcher by applying a twisting action with the hands/wrists/forearms. They believe it is not simply part of the back elbow dropping. They believe that you pull the bat head rearward.

Mike Epstein told me that he doesn't believe that. A former MLB player who is a friend of mine, says it doesn't happen. Albert Pujols and many others talk about keeping the barrel UP, so he can't very well be pulling it down.

And best of all; I was fortunate enough to meet Hall of Famer, Orlando Cepeda through a mutual friend. I talked with him for over an hour, and when I told him that some people say that you immediately pull the barrel back, his jaw dropped and he said, "What!? Have these guys ever played?" Meaning at the MLB level. He said that was crazy.

They all talk about "lagging" the barrel, they don't talk about getting it going early.

Good, then I'm not missing something! The wheel is still round I don't see this bat head moving back and down independently. That would require a wrist action that would unload the wrists!

 

[RichK]

There is not a lot of "tip and rip" in softball but if you tip you can't just drop the back elbow and get to bat lag. The hands need to be more active in sending the bat rearward. Now if you say it's not the hands that work there but the upper arms I think that's semantics (and I don't agree from a feel perspective).

I like and use some concepts I've heard here and elsewhere such as "give the hands something to do in order to let the hips get ahead." Whether you call it a hand cock, a torque, a hitch, etc, I think those things do happen with the hands.

Even Candrea in RVP talks about live and independent hands, an interesting phrase : >

Finally, from what I've read of Tewks his use of "rearward" also includes the orientation change that happens when you get the pelvis open at bat lag. Rearward is behind the body's position at that point and not just back toward the catcher. He's shown that more clearly in his throwing demos.

I think his ideas are valuable to play with when you swing, as Greenmonsters has tried out.