A Swing Revelation - Capturing and Describing The Top Transition

[Greenmonsters]

Here's one thing that has crossed my mind. We're looking to be at specific positions at certain points in the swing. Does it matter how we get to that position? Drawing from Howard's example re starting in a balanced batting stance, although the position is the same, bending at the waist then softening the knees leads to a better result than knees first, waist second. Same exact position, different result or feel. Attempting to extend this concept to the slotting of the back elbow, if we assume that the starting angles are maintained in the process, does it make a difference if the hands initiate the slotting instead of the upper back, shoulders, and upper arms/elbows? To me, the later conventional approach feels more mechanical/rigid than if I initiate the process with my hands.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

How one arrives at the positions is indeed important. Regarding the example you give ... I don't know if the posts were deleted or not, but I earlier broke down Crystl's swing and showed how she dynamically established anterior tilt (bending at the waist) 'during' her swing. That leads to important and well-timed loading ... try it and place a feel sensor in your rear lower back.

 

[jbooth]

There is not a lot of "tip and rip" in softball but if you tip you can't just drop the back elbow and get to bat lag. The hands need to be more active in sending the bat rearward. Now if you say it's not the hands that work there but the upper arms I think that's semantics (and I don't agree from a feel perspective).

Sure, you will feel something in the hands, but the feel is from the hands applying enough force to hold the wrist angle, to counter or balance the force created by the arm movement. You don't just drop the elbow, that would lose the angle, and you don't just use the hands, that also would lose the angle. The hand AND arm muscles are working, but you aren't trying to manipulate the bat head with just your hands and wrists. As Epstein describes it, it's like a weathervane moving. The bat, the hands and the arms are in a geometric position, and that position is maintained as everything moves, and the bigger muscles in the upper arms and shoulders are doing most of the work to cause the movement. The hands and wrists are just keeping the position stable as it moves. The wrists come into play by themselves, to be used to manipulate the bat head just a bit before the bat lag position.

I like and use some concepts I've heard here and elsewhere such as "give the hands something to do in order to let the hips get ahead." Whether you call it a hand cock, a torque, a hitch, etc, I think those things do happen with the hands.

The hands and arms.

Finally, from what I've read of Tewks his use of "rearward" also includes the orientation change that happens when you get the pelvis open at bat lag. Rearward is behind the body's position at that point and not just back toward the catcher. He's shown that more clearly in his throwing demos.

Yes, that move happens and it happens as I described above. Ted Williams called it "flattening the bat." That's where the bat head lays behind your back when the elbows change position. The bat will go a bit toward the catcher at the same time as the flattening, due to the shoulders tilting as the elbow drops. The bat flattens AND simultaneously goes toward the catcher due to the weathervane movement. Which is a combination of the arms and shoulders changing position. The arms mostly flatten the bat, and the shoulder tilt makes it go toward the catcher.

I think his ideas are valuable to play with when you swing, as Greenmonsters has tried out.

Sure, experimenting is always good. But, it's nice to know what the true bio-mechanics are, even if you don't need to know them, to do the move.

 

[Steve Huff]

Sure, you will feel something in the hands, but the feel is from the hands applying enough force to hold the wrist angle, to counter or balance the force created by the arm movement. You don't just drop the elbow, that would lose the angle, and you don't just use the hands, that also would lose the angle. The hand AND arm muscles are working, but you aren't trying to manipulate the bat head with just your hands and wrists. As Epstein describes it, it's like a weathervane moving. The bat, the hands and the arms are in a geometric position, and that position is maintained as everything moves, and the bigger muscles in the upper arms and shoulders are doing most of the work to cause the movement. The hands and wrists are just keeping the position stable as it moves. The wrists come into play by themselves, to be used to manipulate the bat head just a bit before the bat lag position.



The hands and arms.



Yes, that move happens and it happens as I described above. Ted Williams called it "flattening the bat." That's where the bat head lays behind your back when the elbows change position. The bat will go a bit toward the catcher at the same time as the flattening, due to the shoulders tilting as the elbow drops. The bat flattens AND simultaneously goes toward the catcher due to the weathervane movement. Which is a combination of the arms and shoulders changing position. The arms mostly flatten the bat, and the shoulder tilt makes it go toward the catcher.

Sure, experimenting is always good. But, it's nice to know what the true bio-mechanics are, even if you don't need to know them, to do the move.

jbooth, I think you have a much better and correct understanding of this than most. There is less going on than imagined, and that simplicity is why it works beautifully and "connected", not parts going in every which way. Like snapping a bull-whip, it is a fluid motion.

 

[jbooth]

Fair enough, JB. Let's keep it to the technical side. Simply put there's something in my swing transition now that was missing before that makes the swing more effortless and effective. Why is that? What is it and how does it happen?

Without video of before and after, I can't say. But, you may want to read my first response to RichK.

How does the upper body transition from coil to uncoil? Is there a distinct pause between the two or is it continuous? Is there a running start? What role, if any, do the hands play. IMO, looking at video the transition seems more fluid than I see reproduced if the hands and bat retain a fixed angle and are carried along by the upper back, shoulders, and upper arms until they get to the corner. Help me understand what am I missing or not understanding?

There are no pauses.

The legs push on the pelvic bone, which turns the lower half, while you hold the upper half still. WHILE the lower half is moving, you use the arms and hands to flatten the bat, set the elbows and tilt the shoulders. The leg/hip action is applying force to move the shoulders, but you resist letting the shoulders go until you commit to the pitch. Once you commit, the shoulders turn and pull the hands. As they pull the hands, you then use the hands to throw the barrel. You should also have been keeping the hands back, so that when the shoulders do go, they pull the hands. The oblique muscles get stretched when you make the upper half resist the hips wanting to move them. When you commit, the hips make the upper half move, and the obliques contract instinctively, to pull the upper half back in line with the hips. This is the kinetic chain. Legs, lower torso, upper torso, arms and hands. If you keep the hands back, and the front shoulder in, you allow the chain to work from the ground up and the big muscles move the bat. In the beginning, you simultaneously use the arms and hands to get the bat into launch position, so that it goes at the ball once you commit.

 

[jbooth]

Here's one thing that has crossed my mind. We're looking to be at specific positions at certain points in the swing. Does it matter how we get to that position? Drawing from Howard's example re starting in a balanced batting stance, although the position is the same, bending at the waist then softening the knees leads to a better result than knees first, waist second. Same exact position, different result or feel. Attempting to extend this concept to the slotting of the back elbow, if we assume that the starting angles are maintained in the process, does it make a difference if the hands initiate the slotting instead of the upper back, shoulders, and upper arms/elbows? To me, the later conventional approach feels more mechanical/rigid than if I initiate the process with my hands.

There are MANY styles, and stance positions, and many different styles of movements from the stance to toe touch or foot plant. But, at foot plant or heel plant, or some call that instant, "the universal launch point", everyone looks dang near identical, and the movements from there to contact are dang near identical.

If you look at Williams, Ruth and Bonds, they are all similar, but they are different from Mantle and Mays and DiMaggio in style, but from foot plant to contact, they all look the same.

You can look at Adrian Gonzalez and Albert Pujols and Manny Ramirez. They all have different stances and movements to foot plant, but they all incorporate the same kinetic chain, and physics, and get to the universal launch point.