dd swing what needs improving

[Greenmonsters]

He is NOT using his hands. Can't you see the bat tip forward and then back exactly in relation to his back elbow?

Also the front elbow. It is a weather vane movement as Epstein describes it. Watch the elbows.

He does use his hands after the back elbow drops down.

Many MLB hitters talk of keeping the barrel up. You can't have that thought and be twisting your top hand thumb rearward. The ARMS are making the barrel move.

JB - Tom G above references the Bautista clip on Tewk's site - its an interesting read. If you've ever looked at Tewks site, his quest started trying to replicate those too infrequent "blackout" swings" - the swings that produced surprising power with no extra effort and barely an feeling of impact. My college ball might have continued if I had learned 30 years ago that the back elbow slots when the hands turn properly. I didn't believe it until I tried it, but I think I hit the ball harder now than I did then. Try it yourself and see what you think.

 

[Wellphyt]

If her hands are going 100% before the 2nd frame, how can she stop her swing and how can she adjust to an off-speed pitch? And where are her hands going? Similar to staying back to hit the change, its the hands, the bottom hand in particular, that checks the swing. There's a good many MLB hitters that have broken their hammate (sp?) bone in their hand - I'd bet dollars to donuts that its the bottom hand. BTW, your DD's swing is very respectable!

Let me walk you through what I'm seeing with her. In the first image below, I feel like there is too much tension in her front arm at that point in her swing. I know it's not unusual for the pros to straighten the front arm as the shoulders come around; I see it in my swing also; but with the pros it seems to happen a little bit later in the swing than with my DD. The tension in her front arm that early in her swing suggest to me that her hands aren't keeping up with her shoulders. We have been doing a lot of experimenting with different handsets, so perhaps she hasn't figured out when to get her hands going with this handset. I was actually surprised to see the raised rear elbow...that is new. She was hitting out of the Babe Ruth stance to get her to feel coming forward more, but I don't think that should affect her hands.

The 2nd image is one frame before contact and I feel like she is in a pretty good position here. Her front elbow is up and has some bend in it. Her back elbow is tucked down nicely.

The 3rd image is I think 3 frames later. I like the extension and I like the degree of tilt. I also like the fact that her head remains pretty still throughout. Check her helmet against the trees in the background. I do think she is a tad late locking out her front leg; but I think there is a good chance that will fix itself as she gets more comfortable with some of the other things we're working on.

I wish she would spend some time strengthening her wrist and forearms; I really think that would help, but I'm not going to beg her to do it.

 

[jbooth]

JB - Tom G above references the Bautista clip on Tewk's site - its an interesting read. If you've ever looked at Tewks site, his quest started trying to replicate those too infrequent "blackout" swings" - the swings that produced surprising power with no extra effort and barely an feeling of impact. My college ball might have continued if I had learned 30 years ago that the back elbow slots when the hands turn properly. I didn't believe it until I tried it, but I think I hit the ball harder now than I did then. Try it yourself and see what you think.

I think it's a case of you not understanding what is happening bio-mechanically, when you do what you do. You may be thinking about turning your hands, and you feel pressure on your hands, but your shoulder blades, collar bone and upper arms are the main supplier of force to turn the barrel. You feel pressure or force at your hands in order to hold the wrist angles while the other parts supply the force. Getting the hands flat, or palm up/palm down is important, but it isn't the wrists/hands that do it.

The wrists DO get used in the swing but not until the elbow is down. Then ulnar deviation happens (you throw the barrel.)

 

[Wellphyt]

For those who are doubting what jbooth is saying you may want to go outside and throw a ball sidearm. When you throw sidearm, what is your hand really doing as your elbow comes forward? Does your hand come forward as your elbow comes forward, or does your hand stay back as your elbow comes forward? What is causing your hand to turn from palm down to palm facing your target?

The elbow working underneath action is what sets up the throw. However when we throw overhand we don't think of what the elbow is doing or anything other than to throw the ball. It's all one action. I believe there is an advantage for kids to think of the swing in the same way they do when they throw a ball. IOW it's just a throwing action with no thought as to what the elbow is doing. That's why I like what Williams said about the hands. When I think of throwing something, I think of throwing with my hand, even though technically the arms get the hand in position to throw.

 

[Greenmonsters]

I think it's a case of you not understanding what is happening bio-mechanically, when you do what you do. You may be thinking about turning your hands, and you feel pressure on your hands, but your shoulder blades, collar bone and upper arms are the main supplier of force to turn the barrel. You feel pressure or force at your hands in order to hold the wrist angles while the other parts supply the force. Getting the hands flat, or palm up/palm down is important, but it isn't the wrists/hands that do it.

The wrists DO get used in the swing but not until the elbow is down. Then ulnar deviation happens (you throw the barrel.)

I think we're talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about turning the barrel with the hands at the very onset of the swing. Hips forward, hands back, then wrists rotate clockwise and move the tip of the barrel 12-18" backward toward the catcher (although its still pointing somewhat forward toward the field) causing the elbow to slot. Hips go, shoulders go, hands get to corner and then its time to decide to go/stop. I'm still trying to figure out where it happens relative to the start of uncoil (back hip/lower body) - it may actually coincide. With that little early movement of the barrel, the application of upper body power via the core, shoulders, and arms is a smoother transition that results in a more powerfull swing with seemingly less effort.

 

[jbooth]

I think we're talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about turning the barrel with the hands at the very onset of the swing. Hips forward, hands back, then wrists rotate clockwise and move the tip of the barrel 12-18" backward toward the catcher (although its still pointing somewhat forward toward the field) causing the elbow to slot. Hips go, shoulders go, hands get to corner and then its time to decide to go/stop. I'm still trying to figure out where it happens relative to the start of uncoil (back hip/lower body) - it may actually coincide. With that little early movement of the barrel, the application of upper body power via the core, shoulders, and arms is a smoother transition that results in a more powerfull swing with seemingly less effort.

I understand the movement you're describing, and it isn't done with the wrists. It's the upper arms. MLB hitters are trying not to dump the barrel during the process you describe. They do that by holding the wrist angle and using the shoulder tilt and change of elbow position (done with the arms).

Bonds is NOT using his wrists here. Can you see the elbows move in synch with the barrel, yet his hand angles never change?

The wrists are locked and the shoulder and elbow position change, moves the barrel. After the elbow gets down, the wrists add force to throw the barrel at the ball.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Very interesting, thanks JB. I started a new thread - "A Swing Revelation" to hopefully continue this discussion and get more input

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

I understand the movement you're describing, and it isn't done with the wrists. It's the upper arms. MLB hitters are trying not to dump the barrel during the process you describe. They do that by holding the wrist angle and using the shoulder tilt and change of elbow position (done with the arms).

Bonds is NOT using his wrists here. Can you see the elbows move in synch with the barrel, yet his hand angles never change?

The wrists are locked and the shoulder and elbow position change, moves the barrel. After the elbow gets down, the wrists add force to throw the barrel at the ball.

Jim ... I question the notion of the wrists holding the hinge angle and being locked. IMO there is an important lagging process taking place ... and that isn't going to happen with locked wrists. IMO the hands/wrists play a critical role with respect to the creation of lag ... which of course leads to the throwing action you describe.

 

[jbooth]

Jim ... I question the notion of the wrists holding the hinge angle and being locked. IMO there is an important lagging process taking place ... and that isn't going to happen with locked wrists. IMO the hands/wrists play a critical role with respect to the creation of lag ... which of course leads to the throwing action you describe.

Where do you see wrist action in the video below? I see it after the back elbow is almost against his side, not before. I see a weathervane movement. The fingers and wrists are holding the barrel position in relation to the arms. The arms and shoulders are moving which moves the barrel.

The wrists are active between the second and third pauses and beyond.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Jim, I don't see the top hand (Williams' left hand) doing what we see below with locked wrists. IMO the top hand is crucial to obtaining the lag we see here ... the extension and radial deviation (top hand/wrist).