DD Getting Frustrated with Speed

[FiveFrameSwing]

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Here's some threads that address maximizing potential by pulling the ball into whip from a lagged position:
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/sof...ne-skipping-softball-pitchers-learn-ir-4.html
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/18064-ball-up-9-oclock.html
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/18340-ball-facing-up-9-ball-facing-3rd-9-a.html
http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/17402-palm-position-9-6-a.html

Some other examples of lag to maximize potential:
View attachment 9138 View attachment 9139View attachment 9140View attachment 9141

Ken, is it the "ball" that is "lagged", or is it the "forearm" that is lagged (speaking of a windmill motion, sidearm throw, or overhand throw)?

What do you feel is pulling what?

 

[Ken B]

Both, but the complexity of the arm's articulations and my lack of scyuntifical terms make it difficult to explain well. I think BM and JS would do a much better job. Let me ask--why is a golf club head offset? The golf swing is as close to underarm whip as anything I can think of. I'm not sure that the overhand or side arm throws make as much use of ball lag as underarm whip.

Watch the ball and lower arm in these clips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5X86nD_WS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6z39S19x8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmiG4ji3onQ

I see the ball/lower arm being pulled into release and as the upper arm pauses, most of the I/R occurs. I feel the effect of lag when I throw and find that the more I allow the lower arm/ball to relax, the better the whip is, Combine that action with brush, and the ability of the forearm to rotate at the elbow and you have a very powerful and complex machine.

Hope that made some sense...
Ken

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Both, but the complexity of the arm's articulations and my lack of scyuntifical terms make it difficult to explain well. I think BM and JS would do a much better job. Let me ask--why is a golf club head offset? The golf swing is as close to underarm whip as anything I can think of. I'm not sure that the overhand or side arm throws make as much use of ball lag as underarm whip.

Watch the ball and lower arm in these clips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5X86nD_WS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6z39S19x8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmiG4ji3onQ

I see the ball/lower arm being pulled into release and as the upper arm pauses, most of the I/R occurs. I feel the effect of lag when I throw and find that the more I allow the lower arm/ball to relax, the better the whip is, Combine that action with brush, and the ability of the forearm to rotate at the elbow and you have a very powerful and complex machine.

Hope that made some sense...
Ken

Ken, a bit more clarification of what your opinion is would be appreciated.

Yes, in the windmill motion, the overhand throw and the sidearm throw, the forearm is 'lagged'.

When you say 'both' ... as in both the 'forearm' and 'hand' are 'lagged' ... do you mean that the 'forearm' is lagged and therefore all links downstream from the forearm are lagged (lagged relative to the humerus) ... or do you mean that the 'hand' is lagged relative to the 'forearm'?

You asked about golf. Golf, like the baseball/softball swing is one link removed. In the throw, it is the 'forearm' that is lagged. In the golf swing it is the 'club' that is lagged. The 'club' in golf is analogous to the 'forearm' in throwing. In golf the right hand (for a RH golfer) wrist becomes 'bent' ... it becomes 'extended' and 'ulnar deviated' ... this is the articulation that takes place as the 'club' becomes lagged. The right hand 'wrist' in golf is analogous to the 'elbow' in throwing.

Take note of Bill Hillhouse's references to 'elbow' whip. Why do you think he speaks this way? As you answer this, keep in mind that the lag point in throwing is the 'elbow'.

So questions for you ...

1: Please clarify what you believe is lagged in the windmill motion. Do you see the 'forearm' being lagged, and all elements downstream are lagged relative to the 'humerus' ... or do you truly see the 'hand' lagged relative to the 'forearm'?

2: You spoke of a 'pull' taking place. What segment of the body is pulling what segment of the body? What is doing the pulling?

3: What do you perceive Bill talks about when he talks of the elbow being whipped?

p.s.
Edited to add one of Bill's references to "elbow whip".

[.....]

And the wrist is a the riseball killer... it's what makes a pitcher get bullet spin. A rise is done by a STRONG elbow whip so the wrist and fingers follow. NOT THE WRIST. The wrist follows the elbow in the kinetic chain of movements.

[.....]

 

[dgh31]

Hi,

I watched the video. I would let others comment on mechanics because I'm no expert. But one thing I see I would work on is the catcher's glove location. The catcher is putting a target right up around the waist to letters and the pitcher is pitching it there. That's probably not where you want her practicing pitching. Each one of those pitches looks like a potential home run to me. I would have her practice pitching at the knees and consider a pitch between waist and letters a mistake.

 

[Ken B]

1: Please clarify what you believe is lagged in the windmill motion. Do you see the 'forearm' being lagged, and all elements downstream are lagged relative to the 'humerus' ... or do you truly see the 'hand' lagged relative to the 'forearm'?

I think of the lower arm and ball being lagged and loose around the circle through release.

These are quick mark ups, so please forgive the inaccuracies in the angles. My point is to show that I see the ball/lower arm in lag:

2: You spoke of a 'pull' taking place. What segment of the body is pulling what segment of the body? What is doing the pulling?

I can’t tell you which muscle groups I feel, but assume the shoulder muscles. What I can identify is the conscious effort to relax the lower arm and pull the ball around the circle.

3: What do you perceive Bill talks about when he talks of the elbow being whipped?

I like that Bill speaks in feel terms. When I whip well, it feels like the lower arm is being yanked from my elbow.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Thank you Ken.

From your answers it sounds like you have the "forearm" and "hand" collectively lagged ... and not the "hand" further lagged from the "forearm".

Regarding the "pull" ... relaxing the lower arm (forearm) makes sense. Trying to get a sense of what is being pulled. Would it be 1) the end of the humerus located between the humerus/elbow; 2) the elbow; 3) the end of the forearm located between the elbow/forearm; 4) the end of the forearm located between the forearm/wrist; 5) the wrist; or 6) the hand?

I agree that when a pitcher is whipping well that there can be a feel of the lower arm (forearm) being yanked relative to the elbow. Personally, for me, that feel is at the end of the humerus located between the humerus/elbow.

 

[Perfect Circle]

FFS are you a Pitching Coach too???

 

[Ken B]

FFS,
"Pull" might not be the best way to describe it--but it is there, especially going into whip. "Swing the arm around the circle with the lower arm and ball hanging loosely from the elbow" might be a better description. Also, I don't think of the hand being lagged. I feel like the ball is being lagged. Even wearing a wrist brace, the ball can still be lagged and energy stored.

PC,
In the Portland area, there are only two people I know of that I would trust to work with my daughter: sutherlandfinch and FFS. Neither are close enough to see regularly, but I hope to find an opening with either after Christmas.

Ken

 

[dmaeganx2]

well I learned this the hard way with my DD anyhow , When my DD gets palm up she ends up with a more of a locked elbow and struggles to pronate primarily due to misunderstanding the cue in the first place but after countless hours of trying to figure out on why her elbow would not unlock through release. I changed my cue with her and no longer look for palm up but to have the thumb pointing to the sky at 9:00 that cue does not let her arm get to the point that it does lock out and now is much looser in the arm motion and the pronation is now starting to come much more fluently when I was telling her palm up she tended to actually over ER her upper arm to where her palm could actually almost be facing 1st base. but when she points the thumb to the sky it faces in between 3rd base and to the sky.

Thanks Ken! I don't see palm up at 9 in the video above. I do see it after release but that is a different topic. Also, thanks for posting the different pics of various sports to help me understand. Seems as if palm up at 9 versus lead with pinky may be splitting hairs. I went back and looked at some of Coach Pauly's videos and he did say to be careful not to have palm-up especially in the younger pitchers and he also said having palm up with a drop and fb will be much less used versus advanced pitches. However he also mentions that his daughter had a slight palm-up in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HdCsvCn5L4

Again, just wondering if palm-up is "gospel" or if lead with the pinkie is more beneficial or if the girl has gotten that far and away from HE then either way will work well.

Thanks Ken!