Right View Pro

[Slapper23]

Magic,

I think you were referring to me, in my cordial exchange with Mark on this website. To my way of thinking, people with opposing opinions should still be able to discuss and disagree without going ballistic and name calling. I have been guilty of it, for sure, but on this website I decided to turn the page and go with a different communicative approach.

For the record, I am good friends with Tom Guerry and have learned a lot from him over the years. I kind of strayed away from his hitting approach for a few years while going with Englishbey/Setpro, but found it wasn't for me. For me, Tom was right all along.

I have battled with Mark on other websites, but would rather disagree cordially. I guess you would say I'm trying to get along without having to go along. At one time, Mark and I had a great internet relationship built over the years at the old fastpitch Forum website.

Bottomline, I believe Tom and Mark are both good guys with differing views. At this point in time, I agree nearly 100% with Tom in regard to hitting philosophy.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[BoardMember]

To my way of thinking, people with opposing opinions should still be able to discuss and disagree without going ballistic and name calling. I have been guilty of it, for sure, but on this website I decided to turn the page and go with a different communicative approach.

Nice to hear Mike.........

 

[Slapper23]

Hi John,

What I said in my previous post goes for you, too. You and I have battled, to say the least. But I would prefer to exhange ideas and concepts, and if the disagreement is there we accept that, respect that and move on. I still feel just as strongly as before about my disagreement with the Englishbey hitting system asnot representing the high level swing. But that is my opinion based on my learning and experience.

Put it this way, I can bet you if the two of us were standing together on a field disagreeing about this stuff, we could still laugh and be friendly. After all, we still have the same passion about the game, the kids, and coaching.

Mike

 

[Mark H]

Wow.....I thought I read in an exchange you had with Slopper(?) that you were happy with the cordial give and take.

And.....you told me you are 50ish and don't swing. Shouldn't that be the same for everyone?

I'd like to think everyone has something to offer.

It's difficult with Tom. Lots of history there.

 

[Mark H]

Or.....we can explore the answer. That is why we need your answer to where the hands are at flyout.

Do you have any video of someone who you've taught your technique to? Or a clip of an amateur that you know/believe does what you describe. If you do I believe I can point out the difference between what they are doing and Glaus/Griffey/pros.

I work with a few kids and I see many others at the park, and the ones who apply force down the length of the bat are easy to spot.

The hands are wherever they need to be dependent on pitch location. Lose the hinge angle early/ and you will not have a quick swing. You will be trying to push the bathead out and around early in a larger radius.

 

[Mark H]

Sorry but you can't use Glaus to show what you think you see.

I can assure you Troy Glaus is not 'rotationally pulling the knob'. He is not applying force down the length of the bat.

His swing has great hand action. (as well as a great lower body) He has tremendous movement in the z axis.

His barrel pivots about the hands very early in the swing. Just like Griffey.

Photo 3 of 31, Analysis

Freeze the swings at frame 21 just before the bat whips out and you will see the hinge angle maintained or even decreased in these three swings which would be the opposite of torquing the handle at go/pivoting the bat early/Mankin's top hand torque. This is ground we covered ten years ago.

 

[tom.guerry]

hinge angle will decrease and add to drag if it is not adequately opposed by handle torque. The Nyman model where he admits that "holding torque" is necessary for reducing drag shows inertia at initiation of about 60 ft-lbs.

 

[Executioner]

hinge angle will decrease and add to drag if it is not adequately opposed by handle torque. The Nyman model where he admits that "holding torque" is necessary for reducing drag shows inertia at initiation of about 60 ft-lbs.

Which hinge angle? I'm trying to figure out what you mean.

Can you provide a link regarding holding torque?

 

[RayR]

hinge angle will decrease and add to drag if it is not adequately opposed by handle torque. The Nyman model where he admits that "holding torque" is necessary for reducing drag shows inertia at initiation of about 60 ft-lbs.

Tom, is handle torque really the ability of the front scap to reverse direction and start the swing? And not let the front arm/shoulder stretch?

 

[tom.guerry]

ex-

when you talk about hinge angle in golf or hitting, this usually means the angle at the lead wrist between the lead forearm and the bat.

ideally, this angle is at about 90 degrees when the unloading of the coiled/connected torso turns the bat by unhinging (aDducting) the lead wrist.

Nyman has a demo somewhere of a simple model for this which is a rotating mass representing the torso and a rectangular mass representing the bat, then measures the force required to keep the hinge between the two at 90 degrees as the torso turns with reasonable masses and movement estimates for torso and bat.

When the torso turns, this hinge holding torque was about 60 ft-lbs as I recall.

someone more familiar with the recnt setpro forums can probably find the exact thread with the model and readings.

BM has also referred to the angle at the lead elbow as a hinge, and this should be the main focus of the type of arm action at initiation that is encouraged by the "box" cue which should mean that you keep a firm angle at the front elbow during "initiation"/start of unloading/early apporach to contact (do NOT have to retain this angle before OR after this).

The "BOX" cue should NOT be interpreted as retaining connection between the upper arm and shoulder so shoulder turns bat becasue this is NOT the MLB sequence.

The MLB hitter needs to use a woodbat which (relative to fastpitch/nonwood bats)has a pretty high resistance to being rotated, and it has a small sweetspot that has to be lined up well with the ball for an efficient collision that keeps ball fair.

The way the lead wrist hinge needs to work in the MLB pattern is to work with the top hand wrist to turn the bat as the torso continues to load WITHOUT uncocking the lead wrist hinge angle prematurely.

Letting the hinge angle narrow too much/less than 90 degrees will hamper quicknes of acceleration. Letting hinge open wider than 90 degrees prematurely will interfere with torso coil/load and bat acceleration.

The solution that MLB hitters have optimized over the years is action that turns the bat between the hands which creates resistance which initially INCREASES torso coil and provides a mechanism for controlling bathead trajectory to enhance the likelihood of square contact.

A vertical bat makes this turning of the knob without unhinging the lead wrist much easier/more range of motion to work within.

The bat starts to turn/uncock as the hips start to turn, then at GO the TILT of the shoulders further accelerates the bat/resists turning open more level with the hips (accelerates /swings bathead more "down") which gives a better reversed last bit of controllable torso load.

The lead hand does not UNhinge until the torso load/coil unloads. At this point you want to have a running start with the barrell and the lead wrist at about 90 degrees, throwing the barrell which minimizwes any bat drag by turning bat between hands and triggers body momentum to flow into accelerating the bathead quickly.

The secret to eliminating drag is active hands which control the swing by resistance without premature unhinging of the lead wrist.

Non-mlb hitting with worse pitching and hotter bats can tolerate more drag/less quickness/less early batspeed.