Difference between baseball and softball swing mechanics...

[softballphreak]

Huh? Using a hammer doesn't include rotation or the hips. Swinging an axe overhead doesn't include rotation either (at least not when downward force is being produced.) If you are swinging an axe horizontally (or diagonally), when do you use your wrist?

Someone who has never used a hammer may hold the wrists straight with the arm instead of flexing the wrist when driving a nail, i.e. Same thing with an axe. The hips nor anything else have anything to do with it at that point.

When using the bat in a similar motion you want the flex in the wrist similar to what you do with the hammer. With the bat, though, you also want the bat held loosely in the hands instead of a firm grip like you would have on the hammer or axe.

 

[Tewks]

I haven't been here long, but the trend is jumping out really quick. Most here seem to want the shoulders, arms and wrists to be powering the swing. This is not what a baseball swing is... not a good baseball swing anyway. =)

What happened to hips and hands?

 

[Chris O'Leary]

I haven't been here long, but the trend is jumping out really quick. Most here seem to want the shoulders, arms and wrists to be powering the swing. This is not what a baseball swing is... not a good baseball swing anyway. =)

What happened to hips and hands?

I don't know where you got that impression.

The hips pull the shoulders around, which means the hips and the muscles of the core produce a lot of power.

I will grant you that I don't think the hands produce ANY power.

Of course, it could be that you are just setting up a standard straw man argument.

 

[Tewks]

I don't know where you got that impression.

The hips pull the shoulders around, which means the hips and the muscles of the core produce a lot of power.

I will grant you that I don't think the hands produce ANY power.

Of course, it could be that you are just setting up a standard straw man argument.

I don't know what a "standard straw man argument" is. Like I said, I get my stated impression from reading on this forum. I don't like the phrasing "the hips pull the shoulders around" but the shoulders do rotate because of the rear hip. I do believe there should not be lead shoulder or lead arm pull.

In any swing, good or bad, with or without drag, with or without connection, the hands act as a fulcrum or pivot point to the pendulum that is the swing. They can (and should) provide speed to the barrel. (But you've already proven this wrong on your website.)

 

[Hitter]

I haven't been here long, but the trend is jumping out really quick. Most here seem to want the shoulders, arms and wrists to be powering the swing. This is not what a baseball swing is... not a good baseball swing anyway. =)

What happened to hips and hands?

Most younger girls are upper body dominant and the legs have never been used or taught. I am repeating myself however look at how your daughter throws and in most cases you will never see the back leg release, the throwing arm goes straight down or they snap the elbow back wards after they release the ball, their glove side arm is resting on their chest or just static and at their side. Who taught them to throw dad? Do you understand their knee does not fire upon landing like ours? They can be taught this skill if they are taught so where do you begin? How do you teach them what a weight shift is if they have never been shown. How do you teach them balance and please explain it to me and how can we test to see if I am doing it properly and can feel the difference in right or wrong.

Balance , grip, wrist and extension are missing in most girls swing because of lack of knowledge from the coaches teaching them and as we say the foundation is not there however we want to tell them how to use their legs and hips and they can not even get balanced well enough to do what it is you are asking them to do. The look on some of the dads faces when I ask them who taught her how to throw is priceless! The dads back leg released however the daughters does not and he said she is not doing it the way I showed her. Then we break it down and she gets it! Some times you have to isolate the body parts and then introduce a sequence to teach them how it looks and how it feels.

Start with balance, stance, grip, load, stride, separation. Now when you did your stride how did you land and please be specific and was the knee straight, flexed was the foot open , closed 45 degrees, 40 degrees?

For me the foundation starts from the ground up and based on video each persons swing has components that may be missing or may be good, better or best than someone elses swing so you work and try to improve what you see as an instructor to help them get it. Much of what I have tried to describe is missing especially from the neuro muscular skills of the girls because of the dads in ability to teach them or understand how the female body is different, as to balance point, grip, body positions due to wider hips and knee placement more under them or Q angle and the hamstring in most females is not as strong as the quads and again they are not using the lower half of their body correctly. There is no difference in the swing mechanics however if the grip is incorrect and the wrist are rolling at or during contact explain what that has to do with not landing on a flexed knee and the front side is opening too soon and out of sequence. Everyone calls it a kinetic chain. Maybe it is genetic chain that us males have over looked or assumed the girls knew and actually do not because we have not found a way to get them to see it, feel it and fix it. I am not trying to be hard or difficult with you however it seems we as males are predisposed to, SHE OUGHT TO KNOW THIS STUFF!

A friend of mine sent me a joke this morning where his wife told him it was his job to get up before her and make the coffee. He said you are crazy it is your job! She said no it is written in the Bible in the book of HEBREWS! Sometimes you just can not argue with a woman's logic can you?

Your question,"What happened to hips and hands?" They are connected to the legs and feet and the spine and shoulders through the elbows wrist and fingers and are controlled by the thing between your ears and those what you ma call it, the eyes in some kind of sequence and you see the ball and hit the ball! Just kidding!

Thanks Howard

 

[Hitter]

I don't know what a "standard straw man argument" is. Like I said, I get my stated impression from reading on this forum. I don't like the phrasing "the hips pull the shoulders around" but the shoulders do rotate because of the rear hip. I do believe there should not be lead shoulder or lead arm pull.

In any swing, good or bad, with or without drag, with or without connection, the hands act as a fulcrum or pivot point to the pendulum that is the swing. They can (and should) provide speed to the barrel. (But you've already proven this wrong on your website.)

From the on line dictionary

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

Presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument can be a part of a valid argument. For example, one can argue that the opposing position implies that at least one other statement - being presumably easier to refute than the original position - must be true. If one refutes this weaker proposition, the refutation is valid and does not fit the above definition of a "straw man" argument."

Thanks Howard

 

[Wellphyt]

OK... first, as you can tell by my number of posts, I am a new member, so bear with me. If this issue has been addressed before, point me to a link.

I have been reading a lot of the posts in the hitting board and watching a lot of the videos. A lot of the information is very good. As I am working with fastpitch softball players, is there anything that differentiates the swing mechanics of a softball player and baseball player? I guess I am mainly thinking about the plain that the ball will arrive. Baseball, you will be mostly looking at a pitch coming in high to low. In softball, you will be looking at a pitch that is usually low to low, or low to high.

From reading, I would assume that most of the fundamentals of a rotational swing would be the same. Is there any exception that I should be thinking about or pointing out about the plain of the ball?

I hope this question makes sense.

Most if not all high profile college fastpitch coaches including Candrea and Enquist, publically say that the the swing mechanics for fastpitch should be the same as the MLB swing. The reality is very few fastpitch hitters possess MLB level mechanics. Most fastpitch hitters push rather than whip. Probably because their coaches and instructors teach them to do so.

For instance, there are people on this very board who contend that Megan Bush and Pujols have the same swing mechanics. When in fact the two swings are totally different. Bush pushes, Pujols whips. Most people, including myself up until recently, can't see the difference. Nor do they understand what causes the difference. The biggest challenge in teaching the MLB swing to fastpitch hitters, is the fact that hitters like Megan Bush can succeed with amateur mechanics because of the short fences and minus 8 bats. IOW, the bar is much lower for hitting mechanics in fastpitch than it is in MLB.

One advantage of a true high level MLB swing, is the ability for the hitter to adjust their swing plane to match the plane of the pitch. So, on a peel drop the hitter will have a steeper swing plane, whereas on a rise ball the hitter will flatten out their swing. Tom G./ Epstein does a great job of describing how MLB hitters adjust their swing plane.

 

[Tewks]

Howard, thank you for your responses. I believe Chris is the one making the straw man argument, if I understand the definition correctly.

One thing I notice in my area is that the better SB teams do not have better mechanics... they just practice more. They get good using bad mechanics. There is also a lot of momentum being taught. Hitting the ball out front, the positive move is not separated from the drive of the rear hip. It is all one big leaky motion that requires the arms and shoulders to get involved. They do the drills, but there is no intent. There is no feel... just going through the motions. The kids get better... but if you are going to put in the time (and money!) you should be doing things in much greater detail and intensity.


I am curious about what you mean, in detail, about starting from the ground up. Here is my take...

My business partner is a Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist with the NSCA and we talk a lot about the differences in male and female athletes from an anatomical standpoint. He went to school at UConn and worked with the volleyball team as part of his studies. They had to teach the girls (high level, D1 athletes!) how to land from a jump. The premium was on activating the hamstrings and distributing force more efficiently away from the ACL. Further, with strength training you learn to increase and transfer ground reaction force (kinetic energy). High school BSB players are usually more into lifting to get stronger and "bigger," but SB players run for the hills when you talk about lifting and getting big. And you can't blame them... our society is brutal. The combination of 1) learning how to use the body and 2) learning how to use the body more efficiently, is critical with any athlete, male or female. Slightly variations (additions) to the female athletes routine can get things back on par with the males.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

Howard, thank you for your responses. I believe Chris is the one making the straw man argument, if I understand the definition correctly.

Evidently, you don't.

What exactly led you to make this statement...

I haven't been here long, but the trend is jumping out really quick. Most here seem to want the shoulders, arms and wrists to be powering the swing.

If you've been paying attention, it should be obvious that few people around here believe this or teach this.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

For instance, there are people on this very board who contend that Megan Bush and Pujols have the same swing mechanics. When in fact the two swings are totally different. Bush pushes, Pujols whips. Most people, including myself up until recently, can't see the difference. Nor do they understand what causes the difference. The biggest challenge in teaching the MLB swing to fastpitch hitters, is the fact that hitters like Megan Bush can succeed with amateur mechanics because of the short fences and minus 8 bats. IOW, the bar is much lower for hitting mechanics in fastpitch than it is in MLB.

One advantage of a true high level MLB swing, is the ability for the hitter to adjust their swing plane to match the plane of the pitch. So, on a peel drop the hitter will have a steeper swing plane, whereas on a rise ball the hitter will flatten out their swing. Tom G./ Epstein does a great job of describing how MLB hitters adjust their swing plane.

I'd love to know what you'd do to fix this swing and get her to really hit the ball.

The only thing I see is a bit too much of reverse-rotation of the shoulders and a tendency to slap the outside pitch rather than hit it for power.