Turnover drop?

[JJsqueeze]

Five Frame....I've seen multiple videos on drop ball pitches that say you can get a ton of ground ball outs. Doesn't mean a few batters won't catch a few deep....that's not true?

it is true, I have a ground ball pitching DD and she faces some very good hitting teams. Drop balls and low zone pitches result in more groundballs. Watching any college softball game today and you will see more of it, watch the 14U PGF championship from last year and you will see a great dropballer doing the same thing.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

How is the "snapover wrist gyration" different from a peel drop with IR? My DD is convinced she is throwing a peel drop but sometimes she is asked because her hand flops over if she is throwing a turnover. Video below ... first pitch rise and second one is the drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3xuqzVRlTc&feature=youtu.be

In a very real sense, both pitches are peeling.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

it is true, I have a ground ball pitching DD and she faces some very good hitting teams. Drop balls and low zone pitches result in more groundballs. Watching any college softball game today and you will see more of it, watch the 14U PGF championship from last year and you will see a great dropballer doing the same thing.

Having been at the PGF tournament last year, my first-hand experience observed HRs off of dropballs.

 

[JJsqueeze]

How is the "snapover wrist gyration" different from a peel drop with IR? My DD is convinced she is throwing a peel drop but sometimes she is asked because her hand flops over if she is throwing a turnover. Video below ... first pitch rise and second one is the drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3xuqzVRlTc&feature=youtu.be

This gets a little complicated but here goes.

The natural I/R follow through has a wrist turnover into the Frenchmans kiss position (Javasource term). So many people are used to instruction that an elbow up follow through is a FB and a palm down finish is a turnover drop that when they see any I/R follow through they just assume it must be a turnover drop.

As for how the snapover wrist gyration is different, I can't say that it is, that whole wrist gyration thing is not a term i was using as a cue or anything else, I was just referring to the description used in previous posts.

All I care about is the hand behind squared up behind the ball at release and a hand/finger action that goes up the back. The fingers obviously have to have a great influence on spin rate, but spin quality has to do with the hand position at release. What I was saying is that when my DD shows a follow through that has a little down dip her spin rate is higher and axis is more true. I do not think this is a result of the follow through of course, but of a slight change before and into release.

That being said, she can get great spin axis and spin rate just throwing a ball with the cue "throw a FB but get your hand behind it" it is just not as consistent in rate and axis as if we use the cue to get the thumb forward and snap over.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[riseball]

Having been at the PGF tournament last year, my first-hand experience observed HRs off of dropballs.

Along with with some HR's off every other type of pitch thrown. What if anything is your point? No pitch is infallible. However, if you are asserting that a good dropball does not typically induce more ground balls than other pitches, that is nonsense.

 

[cbullard]

I know my DD is facing B level competition, but she does get a lot of strike out/ground ball outs. When she throws her drop. Which she throws a lot (she only throws 2 pitches)

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

This gets a little complicated but here goes.

The natural I/R follow through has a wrist turnover into the Frenchmans kiss position (Javasource term). So many people are used to instruction that an elbow up follow through is a FB and a palm down finish is a turnover drop that when they see any I/R follow through they just assume it must be a turnover drop.

As for how the snapover wrist gyration is different, I can't say that it is, that whole wrist gyration thing is not a term i was using as a cue or anything else, I was just referring to the description used in previous posts.

All I care about is the hand behind squared up behind the ball at release and a hand/finger action that goes up the back. The fingers obviously have to have a great influence on spin rate, but spin quality has to do with the hand position at release. What I was saying is that when my DD shows a follow through that has a little down dip her spin rate is higher and axis is more true. I do not think this is a result of the follow through of course, but of a slight change before and into release.

That being said, she can get great spin axis and spin rate just throwing a ball with the cue "throw a FB but get your hand behind it" it is just not as consistent in rate and axis as if we use the cue to get the thumb forward and snap over.

I hope that makes sense.

We're almost in agreement here.

I would tend to suggest .... throw your FB, but with your hand inside the ball just before the 6-o'clock position, as shown here.

From here, I expect the hand to "get behind the ball" simply by the rotation of the forearm that takes place.

My experience is that any teaching of "getting behind the ball" results in physically getting behind the ball going into the 9-o'clock position, which of course degrades whip.

Again ... very close agreement here, with a difference being that I prefer to work on getting the hand "inside the ball" as opposed to "behind the ball".

 

[AndyS]

This gets a little complicated but here goes.

The natural I/R follow through has a wrist turnover into the Frenchmans kiss position (Javasource term). So many people are used to instruction that an elbow up follow through is a FB and a palm down finish is a turnover drop that when they see any I/R follow through they just assume it must be a turnover drop.

As for how the snapover wrist gyration is different, I can't say that it is, that whole wrist gyration thing is not a term i was using as a cue or anything else, I was just referring to the description used in previous posts.

All I care about is the hand behind squared up behind the ball at release and a hand/finger action that goes up the back. The fingers obviously have to have a great influence on spin rate, but spin quality has to do with the hand position at release. What I was saying is that when my DD shows a follow through that has a little down dip her spin rate is higher and axis is more true. I do not think this is a result of the follow through of course, but of a slight change before and into release.

That being said, she can get great spin axis and spin rate just throwing a ball with the cue "throw a FB but get your hand behind it" it is just not as consistent in rate and axis as if we use the cue to get the thumb forward and snap over.

I hope that makes sense.

Makes complete sense. And that was really my point. Not to create controversy but is there really a turnover drop? Like you say creating that dip at the end of IR may add spin to the peel but it is still a peel. Having said all that in my view it does not matter a ton because it is results that are what count, but it is interesting.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Along with with some HR's off every other type of pitch thrown. What if anything is your point? No pitch is infallible. However, if you are asserting that a good dropball does not typically induce more ground balls than other pitches, that is nonsense.

The point is simple.

What is nonsense is the common color commenter comment of "keep the ball low, and you'll keep the ball in the park".

Anyone truly believing this is lacking an understanding of the diagonal barrel path.

 

[riseball]

The point is simple.

What is nonsense is the common color commenter comment of "keep the ball low, and you'll keep the ball in the park".

Anyone truly believing this is lacking an understanding of the diagonal barrel path.

I don't think the statement was an absolute, rather that down is better than up. You may be over analyzing commentary intended for a TV audience that follows softball 2 weeks out of the year. Expecting a high level of technical commentary is akin to an expectation of great customer service and short lines at Wal-Mart.