Time for a reality check on IR

[starsnuffer]

I'd venture to say that no catapult/trebuchet can accurately emulate whip with IR. A golf swing is the closest I can think of that uses IR, whip and lag.

Agreed.

IMHO, it isn't just whip that is being created during proper motion, it's also the stretching and releasing of muscles and connecting tissue that contribute to the pitch. This is the same for throwing overhand and for hitting. This is why I think it's hard for many to teach successfully, as the period of max load/stretch is actually pretty uncomfortable if you simply move your arm into that position (elbow down, palm up, shoulder down, ect) I can see how many old-school instructors would say "that doesn't feel right, that can't be what is happening", without ever taking the time to figure out that the "loading of the catapult" is exactly the same thing throwing overhand, only upside down. It's very uncomfortable to hold static.

The trebuchet model is overly simple showing just mechanical motion. You'd have to add a series of bungees between the various levers and segment the flexible rope "sling" with bungees between the segments to get a more accurate indication of what happens during a pitch.

-W

 

[Greenmonsters]

I know right....The way some of these threads go some of the posters would take the designs and actually want to use them on the others.

Can you please send me a materials list?

 

[T.J.]

As such....

View attachment 5290

Why am I getting flash-backs of Conquer Club's Kings Court????

 

[Ken B]

The trebuchet model is overly simple showing just mechanical motion. You'd have to add a series of bungees between the various levers and segment the flexible rope "sling" with bungees between the segments to get a more accurate indication of what happens during a pitch.

-W

My youngest has already done the big, 4th grade science project comparing composite to aluminum. I needed one more kid to take on IR vs the others. I'll prolly have to wait for my oldest to have grandchildren...

 

[corlay]

Conversely, I would like to see a push style pitcher that finishes palm down or across the body. That is the one I haven't seen (and I doubt if they exist).

Absolutely not true - they most certainly exist.
My 10U DD was a great example last season.
Palm facing away 12:00-9:00, locked out arm/elbow.
*maybe* realized a small degree of "long-axis" IR from 9:00-6:00, but was essentially a "power bowler".
But did finish without the hello elbow move. Sometimes looked like the opposite of Finch: HE mechanics w an IR finish.

 

[BoardMember]

So guys/gals..........Did we get our "reality check" on I/R???

 

[BoardMember]

Nice visual BM.....but being a history guy as well as a bucket-dad....wouldn't a trebuchet have been more appropriate?

Actually 20, I chose those 2 examples because they both rely on stored and released elastic energy. Only one has the projectile in front of the lever arm (push) and the other is launched from behind the lever arm (pull).........

Where as a traditional trebuchet relies on stored gravitational energy as a counter balance system.......Which is not much a kin to the pitching motion........

 

[Hillhouse]

No.......Who I forgot was Hillhouse.........Bill, and now you, have made that obvious.......

So lets not forget to include Bill, I don't want to get his panties all up in a bunch........

Maybe someday he'll explain the fundamentals of "Elbow Snap/Whip" so people here who don't have the pleasure of attaining lessons from him will understand what he teaches........And why........And how it can help them IMPROVE.........That's what this board is about.........

Although I respect AND believe he is a very good PC.......And have no problem endorsing him to many people who ask me about him..........I can not put him in the same catagory as Rick or Java in terms of FREELY sharing HIS fundamental and/or high level mechanical information in the fast pitch motion.....To this board anyway.........

But then Skinner just wanted us to "buy his books"...........

Regards.......

Ok BM, apparently you're the only one who can issue a "joke". My panties were not in a bunch because you didn't mention me in your post... I was only making a joke about forgetting Hal, not trying to interject my name in your list of people.

This is the 2nd time you've mentioned this thing about the word "snap" of the elbow. I truly don't understand what is so complicated about that. The words snap and whip are interchangeable. The vernacular of phrases and terminology are different in many parts of the country. Some places call "Coke" soda, others call it pop. Finding a word or phrase that makes the light-bulb go off in a kid's head means using multiple ways of explaining things. In an overwhelming amount of cases, the dad's are former baseball players (many were pitchers) who were taught to "snap" their elbow when they pitch. So, in an attempt to help them understand the action I'm trying to get his DD to do, I will use that word on occasion to help him understand a way to help her. I just don't understand what's so hard about that. I don't think it's anything new or revolutionary. I certainly didn't invent it. But if a kid responds to the word "snap" instead of "whip", then it's mission accomplished, no? The verbiage combined with the demonstration during the lesson is usually enough to keep to show that I want them to avoid the "hello elbow syndrome". I also use the word "whip" if they understand that better... it simply depends on the kid.

You're right, you can't put me in the same category as Rick, Java, yourself, or even Hal who FREELY put information on this board 24/7. And here's why, I'm not on this board very much. I am absolutely sure others are also very busy and everyone has hectic lives. I leave for my weekly lessons about 1pm and return home about midnight Tuesday-Thursday. Then on Friday at 5:30am I fly to wherever I go for the weekend, where I typically do 12-14 hour days. I fly home on Mondays and get Monday night off to be with my wife and do nothing softball related at all. That means when I awake in the morning, I get a few hours to answer emails, book travel, skype with my son, pack, go to bank/post office, walk the dog, etc. I simply don't spend much of my free time on this board. I do not begrudge anyone who does spend their time on here but I take umbrage at any implication that it's about money or that I don't reply to things because it's free. I have a website that has my email address on it and BELIEVE me, I get plenty of emails with questions about things and people seeking help... I can assure you I don't get paid for answering emails.

So, go ahead and bash me if you want but there you have it. I am writing this post from Paris where I am on my way to Denmark to be with my son... guess what? I won't be on this board for the week I am there. If I'm not as good of a PC because I don't spend my free time on here, then I guess I'll have to accept that. But my comment about Hal was only meant as a joke, believe it or not.

Bill

 

[sluggers]

As to IR:

Perhaps it is definitional.

"The whip" and the anatomical stretching of the body during pitching have been known for a long time. Those elements can be and were taught independent from the internal rotation of the forearm.

Similarly, the "push/pull" discussion is simply the whip discussion with different terms.

It is hard to attribute "80% of the power of pitching" to IR when the whip and the stretching have been taught as components of the pitching motion for years.

And, just one more time for clarity, I definitely believe that the IR of the forearm is an important part of the pitching motion. I do not believe it is anywhere close to being the Rosetta Stone of pitching.

I can not put him in the same catagory as Rick or Java in terms of FREELY sharing HIS fundamental and/or high level mechanical information in the fast pitch motion.....To this board anyway.........

That is absolutely false. Bill has contributed plenty on this board. He has been very helpful. He tends to post stuff on point and addresses the question. In addition to posting on this board, Bill has produced two excellent, modestly priced DVDs. If anyone want to know the basics of what Bill teaches, all you have to do is spend $40.00.

Bill has contributed more to understanding fastpitch pitching than anyone else on this board. We're lucky he participates.

 

[Twenty20ticker]

Looks like Boardmember and Bill may need those plans for materials that Greenmonsters asked for yesterday. Seriously though, I would love to see them in the same room together debating pitching...it would be well worth the price of admission.