Time for a reality check on IR

[sluggers]

First, I agree that IR is an important component of pitching, and that kids should be taught to use IR.

The problem is that we are getting newbies to this forum who read some of these threads and conclude that IR is the alpha and omega of pitching. It simply isn't.

A good pitching motion involves proper leg drive, good synchronization between the arm, the torso and the legs, the whip action and IR. To simply say, "Oh, use IR and don't worry about everything else" is misleading.

The reality check is Jenny Finch. While Jenny Finch does use IR when she pitches in a game, in her video she doesn't. In those videos, she is still throwing the ball better than 99% of the other pitchers. Why? Because she has exceptional leg drive, timing and whip.

Again, I'm not suggesting that people teach HE. I'm saying that there needs to be a more rational view of IR as part of the entire pitching motion.

 

[BoardMember]

The reason new members are latching onto I/R...........Is because of the simple fact that YOU CAN'T play this game if you don't learn to throw the ball correctly..........

You can't play the field unless you know how to throw the ball overhand correctly WITH sync/timing.........

And you can't pitch (with much success) if you don't know how to throw the ball underhand properly with sync/timing.........

I've said this before and I'll say it again..........

Stance, Grip, Windup, Amount of Leg Drive, are all "Styles"...........

I/R is an Absolute.........That's why there's so much focus from new and veteran members here........

It is 80% of the equation IMO..........

My view is IF you start with a kid who knows how to throw a ball underhand, adding stance, grip, drive/transfer and posture are an easy teach.......

If you start with a kid who knows stance, grip, drive/transfer, but has no clue how to throw a ball underhand.......You've got a hard road ahead.........These are the kids I get all the time.........

They been to 10 PC's.......They know stance, grip, drive/transfer from 10 different PC's.......But they have NO CLUE how to throw the ball.........And none of those 10 PC's can figure out why the kid has no power/velocity.......Can't spin the ball or make it move......The PC's say "you have to drive harder off the mound".......Or "your arm circle is too slow"..........

Because EVERYONE worth their salt as a PC can teach "style".......That's the easy part.......

I want the kids who ALREADY throw with I/R........Whether naturally or trained.........Those are the kids that excel very quickly when adding the rest of the formula........

Just my opinion............

 

[RubberBiscuit]

BM - my question is more of a nature/nurture question for you :

If all pitchers need to get to I/R, (and in theory I agree with you), what proportion of pitchers need to be trained I/R (nurture) versus the proportion that will just naturally adopt it in their natural progression as a pitcher (nature)?

I know you have told me in the past that there needs to be lots and lots of I/R specific PC training out there in the world. Does it?,..really...?

If you and other folks say that a large proportion of wanna-be big-time pitchers get pushed aside or quit, because they never get over a limitation from not having I/R, then I will get closer to understanding why it is such a big topic here in DFP.

But until then I just don't get the deification of this two letter acronym labelled "I/R".....

 

[NorthMS]

Sluggers, I believe I'm one of the newbies you are referring to. If my post came off as believing ONLY I/R is important, I apologize. It wasn't my intentions. I've been reading this forum for 2 years now and am constantly amazed at the good advice and discussions that are here.

My point about not finding a PC that teaches I/R is that, imo, the average girl severely limits herself if she's taught NOT to use I/R. I do believe it's important, I also believe the lower body and balance is important. But, when the 1st thing out of a PC's mouth is "look at her finish. That's her problem.", I have a hard time spending my time and money with them. I just wanted to point out WHY she hasn't had a PC.

 

[SoGASoftball]

Sluggers makes a great point. When someone comes to this site, they hear that you should run away from coaches teaching HE like they are going to ruin their life.

I had the fortunate experience of talking with a couple of DI pitchers at the Mary Nutter tournament in 2013, and neither one of them had ever heard of IR, and both were taught HE. No doubt, if you slowed video down of these two pitchers, they were clearly using IR. But...being taught HE didn't ruin their life...

 

[cuzmail]

The reality check is Jenny Finch. While Jenny Finch does use IR when she pitches in a game, in her video she doesn't. In those videos, she is still throwing the ball better than 99% of the other pitchers. Why? Because she has exceptional leg drive, timing and whip.

Not sure of the point. If the point is that she throws with HE style in her videos, then I disagree.

Out of all of the videos I have seen along with DD attendance at her camp, I have never seen her push the ball down the circle and not use IR to pitch. Does she make and extreme effort during instruction and at camps to bend her elbow and get her right hand near her right shoulder after completing the pitch - absolutely, but I can't say I have seen her actually change to pushing the ball down the circle and abandon IR at those times.

 

[inde53546]

Did we forget about all of the awesome posts by Java and Rick Pauly regarding drive mechanics and creating torque and posture etc? I/R gets a lot of attention on this sight by people including me that recognized early on that what my dd original p/c was teaching/selling wasn't what I was seeing with my own eyes i.e Hanson Principle. This way of teaching is drastically different from what most teach.

This sight is the best there is because it is full of the best information and the most knowledgable gurus'

 

[Spartans21]

Did we forget about all of the awesome posts by Java and Rick Pauly regarding drive mechanics and creating torque and posture etc? I/R gets a lot of attention on this sight by people including me that recognized early on that what my dd original p/c was teaching/selling wasn't what I was seeing with my own eyes i.e Hanson Principle. This way of teaching is drastically different from what most teach.

This sight is the best there is because it is full of the best information and the most knowledgable gurus'

Great insight Inde! For me IR was sort of the "unknown". I knew the softball pitchers on tv looked different then what my kids were being taught. I couldn't pinpoint why their arm was doing what it was doing after release but I knew something different was going on. I think that is what made it so fascinating. Also I agree, big props to Java and Rick for all of the awesome info on all aspects of pitching that they provide for us!

 

[madkenna1469]

I'm going to start this of by saying I am a believer in IR you can easily see it in top notch pitchers and there is no arguing that. I am also in the belief of why teach someone something that you are going to have to change down the line. I have seen it posted hear in the past about 99% of PC teach HE and when you hear the top notch pitchers teaching they are also teaching HE. This tells me that they are teaching what they were taught because they don't understand what it is that they actually do. With that being said how many of these pitchers started out using HE and once they developed their movement pitches their arm action developed more of an IR motion?

 

[GunnerShotgun]

Too much IR talk? I say there isn't enough. It's the one absolute that so many PC get wrong.

When my DD was younger 10/12u we discussed it quite a bit. Now that she has it down we rarely talk about IR and we are focusing on other areas such as leg drive, hip movement and kinetic chain.

If I were teaching 8u's IR would be the one thing I would start with. It solves so many issues in the long run.