Strike? Foul Ball? HBP?

[Greenmonsters]

This coming from someone who recently asked what happens if you bunt foul with 2 strikes.

Better take your shovel back; you're going to need it.

I'm done with this thread.

My inquiry was related to whether a "California bunt" is actually a swing or bunt, which obviously would be critical to determining the proper call on a fouled attempt with 2 strikes. But I will pretend to feel embarrassed if it makes you feel better

 

[MTR]

Its pretty simple. If in the umpires judgement the batter was attempting to strike the ball and gets hit by the pitch it is a dead ball strike. If the umpire does not judge the batter was attempting to strike the ball, it is a dead ball hit by pitch.

There it is and it IS simple. BTW, the bat crossing the plate is NOT relevant to the point of a strike or a swing.

 

[Greenmonsters]

There it is and it IS simple. BTW, the bat crossing the plate is NOT relevant to the point of a strike or a swing.

Yep, we both agree that Comp provided a clear explanation of what constitutes a swing.

But what's your take on the California bunt shown in another recent thread - swing or bunt?

 

[CPEM]

Its pretty simple. If in the umpires judgement the batter was attempting to strike the ball and gets hit by the pitch it is a dead ball strike. If the umpire does not judge the batter was attempting to strike the ball, it is a dead ball hit by pitch.

Ok, I am splitting hairs here, but this highlighted a bit of a conundrum for me:

Batter in the box, pitched ball hits her on the hands, out of the strike zone, was not attempting to strike the ball: dead ball, HBP.
Batter in the box, pitched ball hits the knob of the bat, out of the strike zone, was not attempting to strike the ball: foul ball.

I know what the rule is. I'm just looking at this from the perspective of trying to explain the game to someone thoroughly unfamiliar with the game, and can see how this might be confusing.

 

[MTR]

Yep, we both agree that Comp provided a clear explanation of what constitutes a swing.

But what's your take on the California bunt shown in another recent thread - swing or bunt?

If the bat is SWINGING forward and hits the ball, that is a swing. A bunt is an attempt to tap the ball slowly into the infield. Now, if the batter can manage to bring the bat around and stabilize it to the point it would only tap the ball, it could be considered a bunt. I believe there is no standard black and white response to cover all attempts in this manner.

 

[MTR]

Ok, I am splitting hairs here, but this highlighted a bit of a conundrum for me:

Batter in the box, pitched ball hits her on the hands, out of the strike zone, was not attempting to strike the ball: dead ball, HBP.

Okay

Batter in the box, pitched ball hits the knob of the bat, out of the strike zone, was not attempting to strike the ball: foul ball.

Absolutely not based solely on the information offered. This IS a batted ball and the determination of fair or foul would be the same as any other batted ball.

 

[Greenmonsters]

If the bat is SWINGING forward and hits the ball, that is a swing. A bunt is an attempt to tap the ball slowly into the infield. Now, if the batter can manage to bring the bat around and stabilize it to the point it would only tap the ball, it could be considered a bunt. I believe there is no standard black and white response to cover all attempts in this manner.

So if the video in post #35 in this thread http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/20126-california-bunt.html is indeed a California bunt, you would consider it a swing? And thus just a foul ball w/ 2 strikes instead of a strike out on a missed/fouled 2-strike bunt attempt?

 

[CPEM]

Okay



Absolutely not based solely on the information offered. This IS a batted ball and the determination of fair or foul would be the same as any other batted ball.

You are correct, I should have specified where the ball went (fair or foul). Or I should have just written "batted ball."

The idea I'm trying to help my fictional new student of the game with is this: The act (or lack thereof) of attempting to strike a ball is one of the criteria used in determining whether a batter is awarded 1B due to HBP, or assessed a dead ball strike. I would then anticipate my fictional student to ask why the same criteria is not used when a ball hits a bat? It's just one of those quirks that people who are new to the sport point out every once in a while.

 

[MTR]

So if the video in post #35 in this thread http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-rules-questions/20126-california-bunt.html is indeed a California bunt, you would consider it a swing? And thus just a foul ball w/ 2 strikes instead of a strike out on a missed/fouled 2-strike bunt attempt?

IMO, that was a swing