Scoring: Can a forceout be scored a hit?

[CoogansBluff]

I've never seen so many scoring questions in one week. So let's keep up the record pace ...

I always thought that a batter could not be credited a hit when there is a forceout.

Example: Runner on first. Batter hits liner to center field. F8 fields on one bounce and throws out the runner at second. Force out, 8-4. The unlucky batter is 0-for-1.

Well, here's something in the ASA rulebook that gives me pause --

Section 3. A BASE HIT shall not be scored:

B. When a player fielding a batted ball retires a preceding runner with ordi-
nary effort.

What does ordinary effort have to do with it? Can anyone think of an example where a forceout is not a hit because of a non-ordinary effort?

 

[Sweet Lou]

To me a force out of a leading runner always creates a FC for the batter. If there is some rule that would allow a hit to be credited on such a play, it is news to me.

 

[CoogansBluff]

To me a force out of a leading runner always creates a FC for the batter. If there is some rule that would allow a hit to be credited on such a play, it is news to me.

Same here. I can't figure the point of adding ''ordinary effort.'' ... I just wonder if there are any ''extraordinary'' circumstances that would change it.

 

[TorontoCFE]

To me a force out of a leading runner always creates a FC for the batter. If there is some rule that would allow a hit to be credited on such a play, it is news to me.

What about when the runnner holds because they think a fly ball is going to be caught but it isn't (solely baserunner error in judgment).
It falls in in front of the outfielder who throws to the base before the runner can reach the bag.
It isn't the batter's fault the runner did not proceed safely and I've seen that scored a hit many times.

 

[GI Tom]

I agree, I can't think of any scenerios where a forcout on anyone would yield a hit. However, what you quoted only says a preceeding runner and doesn't specifically mention a forceout.

I might be grasping here, but perhaps it's trying to identify an FC. I.E., runner on 3 and a ground ball hit to F6 straight up, runner on 3 goes and a throw to the plate retires that runner. FC, no hit all on "ordinary effort" by F6. Let's say same scenerio with runner on 3 and a ball hit to the hole where F6 dives and makes a super-human effort to come up with ball. Runner goes and gets thrown out at home. Definitely not ordinary effort, you might credit a base-hit there if you believe she would have been safe at 1B if runner on 3 doesn't go.

That's the only thing I can think the ordinary effort might be referring to.

 

[Sweet Lou]

great point tom, rule doesn't reference force out.

 

[CoogansBluff]

I agree, I can't think of any scenerios where a forcout on anyone would yield a hit. However, what you quoted only says a preceeding runner and doesn't specifically mention a forceout.

I might be grasping here, but perhaps it's trying to identify an FC. I.E., runner on 3 and a ground ball hit to F6 straight up, runner on 3 goes and a throw to the plate retires that runner. FC, no hit all on "ordinary effort" by F6. Let's say same scenerio with runner on 3 and a ball hit to the hole where F6 dives and makes a super-human effort to come up with ball. Runner goes and gets thrown out at home. Definitely not ordinary effort, you might credit a base-hit there if you believe she would have been safe at 1B if runner on 3 doesn't go.

That's the only thing I can think the ordinary effort might be referring to.

I think you might've nailed it. ... I didn't notice that it said 'preceding' runner. I also left out Part A of the rule, which discusses forceouts:

Section 3. A BASE HIT shall not be scored:
A. When a runner is forced out on a batted ball or would have been forced
out except for a fielding error. (This covers the forceout.)
B. When a player fielding a batted ball retires a preceding runner with ordi-
nary effort. (This covers a situation where a ground ball results in an ''ordinary'' out of a base runner. If you hit a ball that results in an easy out of a non-forced runner, then it's an out regardless of whether the batter might've beat the play to first.)

 

[CoogansBluff]

What about when the runnner holds because they think a fly ball is going to be caught but it isn't (solely baserunner error in judgment).
It falls in in front of the outfielder who throws to the base before the runner can reach the bag.
It isn't the batter's fault the runner did not proceed safely and I've seen that scored a hit many times.

This is the situation that led me to this post. It was being argued by two friends today about whether this should be a hit or forceout. IMO, this is frequently but mistakenly ruled a hit. The one arguing for a hit referenced the rule that I quoted. I feel more certain now (thanks to TorontoCFE) that Rule A confirms that this a forceout (not a hit) and that Rule B addresses a different issue altogether.

 

[JAD]

To me a force out of a leading runner always creates a FC for the batter. If there is some rule that would allow a hit to be credited on such a play, it is news to me.

To me it would be a fielders choice, unless the base runner on 1B did something boneheaded, which would result in the batter being credited with a hit and an error on the base runner.

 

[Lozza]

Ill go against the grain here. It was a hit.

If there were no runners on would a centre fielder with ordinary effort have thrown the runner out at first? No therefore the batter should have been credited a hit.

To me any hit to the outfield that results in the runner getting on is a safe hit (unless its a muffed fly of course)

The example of the ball dropping and the runner getting caught out at second. Would the batter have been out at first with ordinary effort? If the answer is no it's a safe hit.