Riseball spin

[JJsqueeze]

so Sluggers, Amy, Ken- do I get a prize for accidentally starting the 10000000000th does a rise all rise thread?

 

[Doug Romrell]

The point I got when I saw this was that Doug's dd, who had yet to play a hs game, was progressing on her rise ball journey to the extent that she could throw a ball underhand, with decent velocity, with more-backspin-than-bullet spin. I think it's a significant achievement.

It doesn't make her a world-beater, but I know a lot of work went into getting to that point and as she improves her speed and spin consistency, it will likely elevate her above other pitchers with similar speed and pitch command.

The girl in the clip I posted isn't my DD. I do agree with what you said, however.

 

[Ken Krause]

so Sluggers, Amy, Ken- do I get a prize for accidentally starting the 10000000000th does a rise all rise thread?

You don't get anything right now. But when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness. So you've got that going for you.

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[FiveFrameSwing]

For me, the "riseball" is more about the rotation of the ball than it is where the ball ends up. I'm claiming that a riseball is a pitch thrown with a backward spin. Given that, anytime a catcher sees a backward spin, axis tilted or not, it's a "riseball" pitch. I've often heard some of the true pitching experts mention throwing a "riseball" (backward spin) for a strike not high in the zone and not swung at. It's often not swung at because the batter thinks it's going to drop more than it does.

Is the pitch above a backward spin pitch or is it a bullet spin???

The pitch qualities that I’ve generally stressed have been ‘location’, ‘movement’ and ‘speed’. IMO the spin (orientation and rate) should ‘help’ with the realization of these qualities. To the extent that someone works on ‘spin’, and doesn’t improve on any of these qualities, and actually retards these qualities, then IMO what they are realizing should be questioned in terms of it’s overall success. To concentrate purely on spin, and ignore profile/movement, is questionable from my personal perspective.

 

[Ken Krause]

The thing I find most interesting about the whole riseball debate is that umpires have moved the strike zone lower than it used to be. Theoretically that should make the rise less effective than when hitters had to cover the zone to the letters.

It seems like if you can bring it at 65+ mph, the shorter reaction time makes it tougher to lay off. Much below that, disciplined hitters seem to know to lay off of it more than they used to.

 

[riseball]

That sounds rather definitive.

Do you have an analysis of the pitch profiles for both '12-6' and 'bullet spin'?

The reason I ask is that I see 'bullet spin' rise balls frequently, and they seem quite effective .... so I'd like a quantification of the 'need' to throw rise balls with a 12-6 rotation.

Feel free to peruse the thousand or so posts where this has been beaten to death. I am sure you will find something.

BTW - What did we decide? Does it taste great or is it less filling?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Feel free to peruse the thousand or so posts where this has been beaten to death. I am sure you will find something.

BTW - What did we decide? Does it taste great or is it less filling?

Been there and done that. The question remains unanswered.

 

[pumpkinbear]

I fully acknowledge that a lot of work went into that ..... and that's my point ..... has anyone bothered to quantify the change as a result of putting in that work?

I don't know whether you missed or dismissed my earlier post on this. But I'll say again that I believe the answer to your question is "No." I'll be thrilled if proven wrong.

However, Pobguy has addressed this for baseball at the link I provided earlier.

Also, the Wikipedia page on "Magnus effect" leads me to expect that backspin will behave differently than bullet spin to a measurable degree. I acknowledge this isn't what you asked for.

I appreciate your insistence that an assertion that backspin has superior movement to bullet spin be supported with a credible study or Hanson Principle-quality video. While I believe this, I don't assert it because I, like you, have not found the evidence you seek.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

PB ... I also believe the answer is 'no'.

People extend a great deal of effort in chasing a perfect backspin riseball ... and very few achieve it .... and yet we repeatedly see expected riseball pitch profiles thrown with 'bullet spin'.

 

[Doug Romrell]

In catching for pitchers I work with, I have learned that I need to get a face-mask. Why? Because when they start throwing back-spin pitches, I have a harder time catching them, in that I almost take one to the face because as it arrived I thought it would be lower than it ends up. I think the back-spin does the same thing to the batter, thus the importance of reading the rotation of the pitch when batting. Personally, I think the label "riseball" is a bad one. Why? Because, as I stated early, one can throw a "riseball" (backspin) lower in the zone and the batter will think it's going to be lower than it ends up, so they lay off the pitch only to have it end up a strike.