Riseball spin

[JJsqueeze]

I threw this together quickly this afternoon so pardon the roughness. As I say in the video, I doubt many/any pitchers get true 6/12 backspin so I am not proposing the Sarah gets it either. But the spin axis you see here is definitely good enough to make the riseball a very effective pitch. Not everyone can throw this pitch......it takes talent and a lot of work. So if your pitcher is short on either (especially the work part) I would suggest not putting a lot of time into it.
Also, as I suggested at the end of the video, I don't expect this clip to convince any hardline "the riseball is a pitch waiting to get hit out of the park" viewers to change their opinion. But for those on the fence it may give you a better frame of reference of what a riseball is and how/why it fools a hitter. Enjoy!!!!

Now that is what I am talking about. Thank you so much Rick. DD has two modes of natural spin, a down and in spin when she gets her timing behind the ball and a bullet spin when she doesn't. Couple this with her posture issues and I had decided to go ahead and get the rise ball training started for three reasons.

1) She already has a feel for bullet spin so she can throw pretty fast with her hand more under the ball
2) I want to help the posture problem but just working on posture is boring so I am disguising the posture training as rise ball training
3) I have noticed that high fastballs are a great strikeout pitch at her 12U level and riseballs are just plain fun.

BUT, as I tried to learn the spin and posture, I could not throw anything close to full backspin with any velocity. The minute I start throwing with any power I either get bullet spin or bullet backspin. So I started looking for rise ball spin footage of something that was straight back and couldn't find any full pitches. Lot of demos and drills with full back spin, but nada on the full pitches. So I started to think that what we call a true rise ball is not a full backspin so while having it as a goal is nice, it is not where you want to devote the time to perfecting. So this helps enormously, we will still strive for great backspin, but if she get the posture, release angle and trajectory with a little backspin then I am green lighting it for games.

 

[Doug Romrell]

Great post, JJ!

As if no one could tell, I'm enjoying this thead!


Rick, Your points regarding the wrist limitations where interesting. Maybe this is why we toy around with the grip with things like a jammed index finger and such as attempts to help get the axis close to perpendicular to the path of the pitch

 

[coach james]

Thanks Rick!
that was awesome

 

[RubberBiscuit]

I threw this together quickly this afternoon so pardon the roughness. As I say in the video, I doubt many/any pitchers get true 6/12 backspin so I am not proposing the Sarah gets it either. But the spin axis you see here is definitely good enough to make the riseball a very effective pitch. Not everyone can throw this pitch......it takes talent and a lot of work. So if your pitcher is short on either (especially the work part) I would suggest not putting a lot of time into it.
Also, as I suggested at the end of the video, I don't expect this clip to convince any hardline "the riseball is a pitch waiting to get hit out of the park" viewers to change their opinion. But for those on the fence it may give you a better frame of reference of what a riseball is and how/why it fools a hitter. Enjoy!!!!

Who is the brave soul catching behind three "trip-wires"?!?!?

I always thought about something like that but always thought that's a way to get hurt as a catcher with possible deflections.

 

[Jojo]

Who is the brave soul catching behind three "trip-wires"?!?!?

I always thought about something like that but always thought that's a way to get hurt as a catcher with possible deflections.

I was just thinking I could do that with my "Awesome Agility poles", but first thing I thought after that, was to remove the catcher!

 

[starsnuffer]

Elite pitchers throw it with bullet spin? Why would you say that? If they can't throw it with reasonable backspin then it is a high pitch. Granted bullet spin is better than down spin but how can an "elite" pitcher not get the proper spin?

Elite would be Olympians, and maybe a few who play NPF now. Through this thread you can see Osterman and Pauly both throwing with slightly offset bullet spin. I consider them both elite.

-W

 

[Rick Pauly]

RB
The catcher had to be bribed with lunch. I have improved the "trip wires" since. Now we use Chinese jump ropes that just flex out of the way and don't deviate the ball path......still need a mask just in case.
"pain is only temporary"......

Who is the brave soul catching behind three "trip-wires"?!?!?

I always thought about something like that but always thought that's a way to get hurt as a catcher with possible deflections.

 

[javasource]

If I release the ball at an upward trajectory of 6-10 degrees... like Sarah...

... and I release it from just above my knees (let us use 2 feet)...
... and I throw the ball 60+ mph (for giggles... say 62)....
... and I apply ZERO spin to that ball... (meaning, the axis is not a factor AT ALL)

It will finish as a level 2 riseball (top of the strike zone)... or 4 feet off the ground.

I also know... that if I observe this from the side... there will be little downward angle on the ball... (read: slight parabolic bend) BECAUSE the force the pitcher imparted on the ball AND the distance the ball travels to the glove... give outside forces little to no chance of really impacting the flight path.

So... PROVIDING that my spin axis is NOT negatively acting on the ball... (hmm... like bullet spin)... it will... for lack of a better phrase... git-r-done. Which is probably why JJ started this thread in the first place.

 

[starsnuffer]

With all due respect, I somewhat disagree. All pitches fall from original trajectory. It's that the back-spin falls less. How much less in a relative sense depends on the drop from original trajectory the pitcher's other pitches realized. This the importance of having a great dropball as a riseball pitcher.

Put it in the sim and see for yourself. https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/foil2bk.html

-W

 

[Rick Pauly]

Doug
What you described is typical of how men grip a riseball. I do believe that it may enhance the possibility of getting backspin. I have converted a few girls over to it but most just don't have the length of fingers needed or don't have the grip strength. The ones I have converted were relatively successful.....whereas with the traditional girls grip (like Sarah's) they just couldn't get anything resembling backspin.
One thing to be careful of (and I believe it would be one of the reasons Bill Hillhouse is a big promoter of not taking the hand out of the glove until 3 o'clock) is that if the hand drops out of the glove early on a backswing the finger tip/knuckle grip may be detected by the hitter.

Great post, JJ!

As if no one could tell, I'm enjoying this thead!


Rick, Your points regarding the wrist limitations where interesting. Maybe this is why we toy around with the grip with things like a jammed index finger and such as attempts to help get the axis close to perpendicular to the path of the pitch