Riseball spin

[JJsqueeze]

If I release the ball at an upward trajectory of 6-10 degrees... like Sarah...

... and I release it from just above my knees (let us use 2 feet)...
... and I throw the ball 60+ mph (for giggles... say 62)....
... and I apply ZERO spin to that ball... (meaning, the axis is not a factor AT ALL)

It will finish as a level 2 riseball (top of the strike zone)... or 4 feet off the ground.

I also know... that if I observe this from the side... there will be little downward angle on the ball... (read: slight parabolic bend) BECAUSE the force the pitcher imparted on the ball AND the distance the ball travels to the glove... give outside forces little to no chance of really impacting the flight path.

So... PROVIDING that my spin axis is NOT negatively acting on the ball... (hmm... like bullet spin)... it will... for lack of a better phrase... git-r-done. Which is probably why JJ started this thread in the first place.

You nailed it. That was pretty much the intent, more of a "practical riseball" thread as opposed to the theory. I am not very interested in the whole 6-12 debate as it pertains to break, I am pretty much willing to bet anything I own on the fact that perfect 6-12 drops less/breaks up, whatever we want to call it, than any other spin, so I am bought into the ideal. But I just don't think the reality bears this out. As Rick said, unless we can redesign the wrist, that 6-12 ain't gonna happen so we are left with less than the ideal. Seeing Cat's and Sarah's spin was all I needed really. No one is going to outwork them on understanding or perfecting spin and if they can't throw it with 6-12 then I am willing to bet that it ain't gonna happen. This is not any sort of comment on the effectiveness of the pitch. I have seen enough softball to think the RB is very effective, especially when you have a junkball repertoire and have a decent drop, which is what I think DD is gravitating towards. I don't think I have a fireballer on my hands, but she lights up when she jams a girl inside or freezes her with a CU so if she can get some more swings by intentionally throwing a RB or almost RB then it will compliment her style well.

 

[Rocketech1]

I threw this together quickly this afternoon so pardon the roughness. As I say in the video, I doubt many/any pitchers get true 6/12 backspin so I am not proposing the Sarah gets it either. But the spin axis you see here is definitely good enough to make the riseball a very effective pitch. Not everyone can throw this pitch......it takes talent and a lot of work. So if your pitcher is short on either (especially the work part) I would suggest not putting a lot of time into it.
Also, as I suggested at the end of the video, I don't expect this clip to convince any hardline "the riseball is a pitch waiting to get hit out of the park" viewers to change their opinion. But for those on the fence it may give you a better frame of reference of what a riseball is and how/why it fools a hitter. Enjoy!!!!

Great stuff as usual Rick! One thing I wanted to point out is if you watch the side video at the 2:55 mark, Sarah's riseball peaks as it reaches 2/3 of the way to home plate and basically stays flat until it hits the glove. I drew a straight line from the top of the smaller fence (off to Sarah's right) and you can clearly see that it does not continue to go up above this straight line as some of us here on this site have suggested. I think we would all agree that Sarah has a very good (if not great) riseball, thrown with some but not pure backspin, and if she can't get the pitch to "rise" or "hop" the last 1/3 of the pitch, no one can.

 

[Doug Romrell]

No one is going to outwork them on understanding or perfecting spin...

Not to take away from their (Osterman, Pauly, and other similar riseball pitchers) greatness, I don't think we can say that no one is going to outwork them on perfecting the spin. It is entirely possible that someone will come along and get closer to the potential of the human body (their body) with regards to throwing the perfect riseball. Further, and again not to take away from those great pitchers, regarding the "understanding" of it, I would argue that some pitching coaches around here (Rick Pauly comes to mind) may well have a better "understanding" than these pitchers. We've often seen great pitchers not do so well in explaining what it is that they actually do. I would argue that this might well be a hole in their understanding, yet they have learned who to achieve a great riseball pitch.

 

[JJsqueeze]

Not to take away from their (Osterman, Pauly, and other similar riseball pitchers) greatness, I don't think we can say that no one is going to outwork them on perfecting the spin. It is entirely possible that someone will come along and get closer to the potential of the human body (their body) with regards to throwing the perfect riseball. Further, and again not to take away from those great pitchers, regarding the "understanding" of it, I would argue that some pitching coaches around here (Rick Pauly comes to mind) may well have a better "understanding" than these pitchers. We've often seen great pitchers not do so well in explaining what it is that they actually do. I would argue that this might well be a hole in their understanding, yet they have learned who to achieve a great riseball pitch.

That's just the thing, this is squarely in the realm of doing and not teaching. For instance, I have seen footage of Osterman's clinics and I am not going to say the instruction to others is great, teaching and doing are two different skills. Some can do both, others can do one or the other, some none, But when it comes to doing something having to do with pitching and spins, I would go all in on betting that if Osterman and Pauley both don't get 6-12 then it ain't happening. I am guessing that Sarah is pretty damn cerebral with her pitching and has absorbed what the DD (dear dad) has taught, so I am completely sure that she has tried every angle, speed, hand position and grip to get it perfected. Add to the that the fact that their body types (long and lanky with larger than normal hands and longer fingers) allow them to get advantageous RB angles that stockier pitchers cannot get to and I am convinced that there is no gold in them thar hills of the perfected 6-12 spin. The ONLY mechanic they use that could get in the way of a riseball IMO is that both of them have a lot of brush interference in their pitches and I wonder if that brush decreases the amount of time the hand can be under and cut across the ball at it's most favorable angle for a RB.

 

[starsnuffer]

Doug
What you described is typical of how men grip a riseball. I do believe that it may enhance the possibility of getting backspin. I have converted a few girls over to it but most just don't have the length of fingers needed or don't have the grip strength. The ones I have converted were relatively successful.....whereas with the traditional girls grip (like Sarah's) they just couldn't get anything resembling backspin.
One thing to be careful of (and I believe it would be one of the reasons Bill Hillhouse is a big promoter of not taking the hand out of the glove until 3 o'clock) is that if the hand drops out of the glove early on a backswing the finger tip/knuckle grip may be detected by the hitter.

That's a great point. My oldest daughter and I were sitting behind the catcher at the Stanford-Cal opener and she was calling the riseball on two of the pitchers on the backswing based on the bent finger. One of the pitchers also threw a curve with the back finger but she was able to spot the difference because the pitcher was stepping inside to throw the curve. One of the pitchers had such a huge backswing the ball was straight up over her head like a beacon every single pitch, well in advance of the pitch actually happening.

-W

 

[Rick Pauly]

RT
Agree totally with you.
In my opinion (Sarah included), a decent riseball thrown in the zone has flattened out before it gets to the front of the plate.....poorly thrown riseballs are already dropping at the front of the plate.
This may be different in the mens game because of the higher speeds/less time for gravity to pull it down.

Great stuff as usual Rick! One thing I wanted to point out is if you watch the side video at the 2:55 mark, Sarah's riseball peaks as it reaches 2/3 of the way to home plate and basically stays flat until it hits the glove. I drew a straight line from the top of the smaller fence (off to Sarah's right) and you can clearly see that it does not continue to go up above this straight line as some of us here on this site have suggested. I think we would all agree that Sarah has a very good (if not great) riseball, thrown with some but not pure backspin, and if she can't get the pitch to "rise" or "hop" the last 1/3 of the pitch, no one can.

 

[Doug Romrell]

RT
Agree totally with you.
In my opinion (Sarah included), a decent riseball thrown in the zone has flattened out before it gets to the front of the plate.....poorly thrown riseballs are already dropping at the front of the plate.
This may be different in the mens game because of the higher speeds/less time for gravity to pull it down.

I guess the key is how fast the rotation is and how fast the pitch is. I'm guessing getting both fast rotation and fast pitch speed is vital for being a top-notch riseball pitcher. Without the needed velocity, the riseball/back-spin is just another dropping pitch as it crosses the plate.

 

[BLB]

As Rick said, unless we can redesign the wrist, that 6-12 ain't gonna happen so we are left with less than the ideal. Seeing Cat's and Sarah's spin was all I needed really. No one is going to outwork them on understanding or perfecting spin and if they can't throw it with 6-12 then I am willing to bet that it ain't gonna happen. This is not any sort of comment on the effectiveness of the pitch.

For years, I keep reading on these forums about the perfect 6-12 rise ball spin. Perfect in what way? If people are suggesting that it's the most effective rise ball spin, what do they base this assumption on? Others may have experienced something different but I have seen a lot of elite male pitchers over the last 50+ years. Very, very few had a 6-12 spin. Furthermore, that type of spin seemed to be less effective than the slanted (7-1) spin (catcher's view) which not only had as much upwards effect (?) as the vertical spin but also broke away from the RH hitter and into the hands of a LH hitter. As soon as we saw a vertical spin on a rise ball, we called that pitcher a C&D (chuck & duck) pitcher. I have seen a few young female pitchers ruin their mechanics by having coaches trying to get them to throw a vertical spin. Over the years on the men's side, I have hardly seen a bullet spin (can't even remember 1 example). On the women's side, it seems to be quite common. I have seen small stature male pitchers who's hands were no bigger than a lot of these girls and they had a terrific rise ball (excellent spin direction). I had a very good rise ball and could spin it vertically or slightly slanted. The slanted one was more effective. No question.

 

[CoachFP]

Darren Zack had great 6-12 spin as did Chubb Tangaroa. Zack's ball would appear to float. Unlike anything I had seen before. I must disagree with Rick saying a rise ball flattens out by the time it gets to home plate. Unless he is saying it is not rising as much. I am by no means an elite pitcher and don't throw 70 mph but I can throw a riseball that is near the top of the strike zone and is still going up past where the catcher would have caught it. Maybe it's semantics.

 

[coach james]

Dallas Escabeto (sorry if I horribly misspelled her name) has an incredible rise ball. But her release is very different. I'd love to see a slo mo video of how she gets her backspin.