IR/drop explanation of spin

[halskinner]

If her follow through is towards the left shoulder or across the body AND she makes that move before losing all contact with the ball, that could be what is giving you the down and in spin. If I am understanding this correctly. Whomever taught her whatever, dont use any follow through on a peel drop and see if that helps.

Hal

 

[Mike]

Ken, I don't mean to hijack v-dubs thread but my daughter is in a similar situation. She just turned 11. So far I have resisted her being taught anything but a fastball and change until her mechanics are sound. Her new PC has her mechanics looking alot better. He understands the correct pitching motion and mirrors what I read on here and what I see in video. We are very happy with him but when we start talking drop he talks about getting over the front foot and pulling up on the ball. I see good results from his other students, but I tend to agree with what Hillhouse says about throwing the drop. I am a little confused on how to progress to the next step. Look at my christmas wish list, I would really like to see some clips like that.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[halskinner]

Ken, I don't mean to hijack v-dubs thread but my daughter is in a similar situation. She just turned 11. So far I have resisted her being taught anything but a fastball and change until her mechanics are sound. Her new PC has her mechanics looking alot better. He understands the correct pitching motion and mirrors what I read on here and what I see in video. We are very happy with him but when we start talking drop he talks about getting over the front foot and pulling up on the ball. I see good results from his other students, but I tend to agree with what Hillhouse says about throwing the drop. I am a little confused on how to progress to the next step. Look at my christmas wish list, I would really like to see some clips like that.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike, what drop is he trying to teach her? Peel? Pull up? The combination peel AND pull up? Is she throwing with an open or a closed style?

Hal

 

[Mark H]

Ken, I don't mean to hijack v-dubs thread but my daughter is in a similar situation. She just turned 11. So far I have resisted her being taught anything but a fastball and change until her mechanics are sound. Her new PC has her mechanics looking alot better. He understands the correct pitching motion and mirrors what I read on here and what I see in video. We are very happy with him but when we start talking drop he talks about getting over the front foot and pulling up on the ball. I see good results from his other students, but I tend to agree with what Hillhouse says about throwing the drop. I am a little confused on how to progress to the next step. Look at my christmas wish list, I would really like to see some clips like that.

Thanks,


Mike

Bill hates the pull up and I hate the get over your front foot standard teaching. Just a crutch imo to make up for not making the ball break with spin and results in too many girls who can only make the ball break if it crosses the plate below the zone.

 

[Mike]

Mike, what drop is he trying to teach her? Peel? Pull up? The combination peel AND pull up? Is she throwing with an open or a closed style?

Hal

Peel drop, I assumed the pull up was meant to be the end part of the peel. I have been resisting it a little so he has not pushed it. She stays mostly open, only closing a little after release.

Bill hates the pull up and I hate the get over your front foot standard teaching. Just a crutch imo to make up for not making the ball break with spin and results in too many girls who can only make the ball break if it crosses the plate below the zone.

Mark, I agree that is why I have been resisting until I understand it better. I would love those videos I requested for christmas.

 

[Ken Krause]

I, on the other hand, like pitchers to get out over the front foot. Essentially, I have them stride out as normal, but then bring the front foot down a little early so the upper body carries over it. How much? I have them stride out normally, and wherever the heel lands for the fastball is where the toes land for the drop. So basically it's one length of their own foot, more or less. It definitely helps my students to get more break on the ball.

I also don't like the pull up on the ball method for release. I teach a release where the hand pulls over the top of the ball, with the fingers pointing backward. The ball is released before the hand has to rotate forward and the fingers have to point down. I know, I know, video.

In any case, I bring it up because (again) there's more than one way to throw a particular pitch. It works for my students.

 

[Coach Stan]

I teach 2 different type drops the peel and pull over. When I teach a peel to a pitcher I do not teach her to pull up and have the elbow behind her back and palm under her shoulder. I teach her to pitch the ball by pulling up on the seams and finishing with the elbow down and the hand up. I also teach them to drive with their normal drive out, not to short step and to advance a little weight on the big toe of the landing footupon release. Many of my students who pitch this type of drop have used it very effectively at very high level of competition from rec allstars thru to college.

 

[BoardMember]

Mark,
when I look at those gears, I imagine an axle in the center of each, which would be parrallel with the ground in either case. In both cases the gears would be spinning percect 12-6 spin, like tires on the ground, however in one case the tire is making a right turn..... now if the top of the gear were tipped to either then left or to the right, you would no longet have 12-6 spin.....what am I missing here???

It seems someone was paying attention in class......

 

[Mike]

http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-pitching/1508-teaching-drop-6.html
post #58
I like what I see here.
It would be cool to see a side view, frozen at the release point. Her follow through is straight up, elbow down, palm facing rear. But does she stride short? release early or late? get over her front foot? It looks to me like any other pitch.

It seems like angle of release is a hot button issue. I can't find it but someone posted pitchers who stride short and lean over there stride foot are basically just releasing with a lower trajectory (peel drop). I appreciate everyones input, and if you are having success with your pitchers that is outstanding, but as MarkH always says compare what anyone says with video of the best. I say prove what you say with some video of what you teach.

I hope this makes sense Im really tired.
Thanks to all, its nice to learn from everybody elses expierence.

Mike

 

[BoardMember]

Seeking the Perfect Peel Drop

There are obviously several things that will affect both the axis of rotation, and the orientation of the laces within that axis.

One of the most influential is the position of the thumb at the instant of release, and how it relates to the position of the fingers across the laces.

Obviously, in order to affect the best 6-12 spin, your hands have to be large enough for both the thumb and fingertips to reach the cross laces of the seams AND be directly opposite each other.

Men tend to hold the ball with 2 fingers and a thumb because their hands are larger and stronger. With the thumb splitting the web of the index and middle fingers and the ring and pinkie tucked away. Like this:

Older girls with large enough hands tend to use 3 fingers and the thumb, with the thumb opposite the middle finger and the pinkie tucked away. Like this:

Girls with even smaller hands will use all 4 fingers and the thumb, with the thumb opposite the middle finger.

What is MOST important is that the non-gripping fingers are NOT influencing the side of the ball. Tuck them out of the way.

Some keys to think about and understand about the peel drop:

The better the alignment of the thumb and gripping fingers maintaining direct opposite positions from each other, the more likely 6-12 spin will occur. Also, the better the non-gripping fingers are tucked out of the way, the less "influence" they will have in creating "side forces" that effect the effciency of the staight over spin. IE, if the little fingers, and/or thumb are on the side of the ball, the more they will influence side spin and inhibit over spin.

The more the ball contacts the palm, the less spin will be imparted. Meaning if your DD's hands are to small to reach the seams the more she will "tuck" the ball into the palm to reach for them, which inhibits rotation. Try and keep some distance between the ball and palm. Even a little will make a huge difference.

Girls (and even some guys) can not hold the ball will sufficient grip for peel drop if the thumb does not catch a seam when they are thowing FULL SPEED. So, they might slow the circle in order that they don't lose the ball early from centifugal force.

I will NOT teach peel drop to pitchers who cannot reach OPPOSITE seams with both the thumb and gripping fingers unless we rotate the ball in the hand in such a way the allows them to "get a grip" with both.

One way to affect this is to simply rotate the "horse shoe" slightly inward toward the web of the thumb and index finger, bringing the seams closer together to allow them to "get a grip". Like this:

It does "cock the seam" slightly outward from gripping straight across the seams, BUT, it allows for both thumb and gripping fingers to "get a grip" in smaller hands. What is also does is put the seams directly horizontal to the ground during internal rotation if the thumb is slightly over-rotated inward at release.

Simply manipulating the seam position in the grip is one way to correct seam side spin if the hand is not attaining the desired position of "thumb to the catchers feet" is not being achieved by release.

By marking a line around the ball with tape or a marker across the widest part of the four seam axis and playing with the position of the seams gripped in the hand, and then throwing some pitchers while noting the BEST seam grip configuration to obtain the purest 4 seam over spin is the best way to insure good peel drop rotation is being achieved.

Here is one thing to keep in mind that is VERY IMPORTANT:

Spin alone will NOT make the ball move. It takes velocity to create friction on the surface of the ball so the the seams can "bite". If your DD is sacrificing TOO MUCH velocity to get that "perfect spin", the results will be less optimal then creating pretty darn good spin, with enough velocity for even the "not so perfect" seams to work efficiently. Don't forget......THERE ARE SEAMS ALL OVER THE BALL........

If her hands are NOT large enough to grab both seams.......or are so small that she needs to "tuck the ball into her palm" to do so........or can't get her thumb directly opposite her gripping fingers and still get the seams........or needs to lay her thumb on the side of the ball just to hold it (much younger players)........or must leave her pinkie on the side of the ball just to hold it.......And you are seeking PERFECT drop spin........

You're just "spinning your wheels" so to speak.

Find the best combination of grip, spin and velocity, and work with it.........

Best Regards.......