IR/drop explanation of spin

[vdubya]

Hopefully the pic comes thru. Click to enlarge! In the images above, the red line indicates the ball's axis--which is parallel to the ground in both columns. If the left hand column above is the spin that is to be expected on a fastball when throwing with IR, and the optimal dropball spin is the column on the right...

What does one change in the fastball mechanic in order to throw a peel drop and achieve the spin as in the right hand column?

Young DD has been working on the drop. What I have found is that she is able to add an additional 2.5 rps of spin (loses 2-3 mph though), but has not been able to turn the axis for a 12-6 as in the right hand column. At 11yo, her FB now averages 41mph and her drop 38-39. Call me a purist, but I really want to see the ideal 12-6 spin. We use a thigh high rope about 15 feet from the plate which she is able to barely clear and then hit the plate. Even with the desired result of the pitch, I feel that at this slow speed, the result is more a product of gravity than the extra spin, and that if the AXIS was a true 12-6, that extra spin may actually promote a TRUE drop. If left as-is, I feel that as she grows stronger and faster, the result (drop) will go away due to increased speed unless we fix the spin such that it is the cause of the break.

Those left-column images have caused a tickle in my craw ever since we switched to IR. In my gut I always suspected the IR fastball spin would present a problem when it came time to throw a drop. I have to ask...is the left hand column really a correct FB spin? If so, what mechanical change is necessary for the optimal drop like the right column? Ideally, I'd like to see the drop thrown with mechanics identical to the FB, releasing slightly early as Bill suggests, but that doesn't correct the axis to 12-6. It actually doesn't seem to change the axis at all. Something HAS to change but I don't know what. Hoping some of you can shed some light. Was hoping this would get resolved in the drop ball/IR thread recently, when Boardmember did say that the drop mechanic wasn't inconsistent with IR. Unfortunately that thread took a turn and some of us are still slow to make sense of this.

Thanks in advance!
VW

 

[Mark H]

I"ll leave it to the instructors on the how but I congratulate you for your use of a rope to pitch over. I hope you have a mask on. No doubt in my mind you can produce perfect spin with better timing. Mathematically, the spin you illustrate would get you a very high percentage of the down force that perfect spin would get but always look to improve. Have you put electrical tape on the ball or used a marker to paint a stripe on the ball in the axis you want the spin so she can see the spin axis clearly right after release?

 

[Hillhouse]

Vdub... I'm thoroughly confused by all of this. Sorry, I'm not real bright. However, if she's losing 6/12 spin it means she's doing something wrong. She's turning her wrist or cupping the ball to alter the spin. Check her hand position at 12:00 and see if she's got the ball pointed to 3rd base. If not, there's your problem.

It sounds like you are making this more complicated than it needs to be, in all honest.

Bill

 

[JC heir]

First- I am by no means a pitching coach. But, I am fairly mechaniclly minded- From your illlustration, I fail to see the problem. The spin on the left is going to give you just as much downspin as the one on the right albiet with some curve in to a RH batter.

 

[halskinner]

Maybe I missed it but what grip is she using?

Going for the 6/12 spin, make sure the legs of the horseshoe are sideways to that 6/12 spin. Many teach to have the fingertips just above one of the horseshoe legs. 4 seam vs 2 seam and 4 seam produces more air disruption than the 2, more movement.

It feels a little rougher on the ends of the fingers to the younger pitchers than they like (WAH WAH WAH) but they like how it moves more. Tell em to get tough and take it for the team.

 

[Mike]

V-dub,
My daughter is same age same boat. I have been searching for the same answer. What I have come up with is on the "fastball spin" the ball rolls of the outside of the index finger on release causing the spin that cuts in on a right handed batter. I have been trying to explain to her for "drop ball spin" she needs to feel the ball roll of her finger tips more. We have been practicing ball flips from the release position, the goal is trying to get her to feel the ball rolling of her finger tips, how to get different directions of spin and how it will effect what kind of break she will get. Anyways from what I have read and heard the finger tips play a big roll in ball spin and we are spending a portion of pitching time working on just that.

Bill,
Can you explain how ball position at 12 can effect the release? And why 3rd base as opposed to pointing at the catcher? And critique my thoughts on the fingertips. Thanks

Mike

 

[Mark H]

First- I am by no means a pitching coach. But, I am fairly mechaniclly minded- From your illlustration, I fail to see the problem. The spin on the left is going to give you just as much downspin as the one on the right albiet with some curve in to a RH batter.

Perhaps I need to go look again. I interpreted the drawing to mean the spin axis was level to the ground but not perpendicular to ball flight? To add curve to the break the axis would need to be tilted relative to the ground. To get maximum movement the spin axis needs to be perpendicular to ball flight.

 

[JC heir]

Mark,
when I look at those gears, I imagine an axle in the center of each, which would be parrallel with the ground in either case. In both cases the gears would be spinning percect 12-6 spin, like tires on the ground, however in one case the tire is making a right turn..... now if the top of the gear were tipped to either then left or to the right, you would no longet have 12-6 spin.....what am I missing here???

 

[Mark H]

I agree. But if I want a drop curve I'm going to want to tilt the axis. I would describe the left picture as partial bullet spin. It might do a little something funky with the movement but it's not going to break hard to the side. If the spin is fast enough it should break down fairly good but it would be better to perfect the spin. Then on a bad day your spin looks like the illustration on the left instead of like bullet spin.

 

[Ken Krause]

There are different ways to throw a peel drop. Can explain how your daughter is being taught? That might provide some clues as to why the spin orientation isn't what you're looking for.