Fast Hands ??

[FiveFrameSwing]

Your question comes down to understanding the difference between a pure "momentum" based hitting approach and a hitting approach involving "stretch and fire" mechanics. Very often kids find 'momentum' to be natural, but they need to be taught 'stretch & fire' mechanics. So the answer is ... for many young hitters, it is not automatic ... at least not until it is taught, at which point it's like learning how to ride a bike ... once learned, it can be pretty much automatic ... which is why it works in the batter's box.

One way to view "stretch and fire" is the creation of torque in the midsection ... which is basically what is happening when the hips lead the upper torso & hands ... there is an introduction of dynamically created elastic stretch in the midsection. You are in a sense stretching an elastic that you unleash.

Personally I like to view the back hip as 'grabbing' the rear shoulder ... and given that hitters tend to load their rear arm in a power-vee relationship (a pinched rear forearm-to-bicep triangle orientation), the initial lowering of the rear elbow is (or should be) a result of the hips leading the way ... that is, the hips grab/tug on the rear shoulder, which is connected to the rear elbow via the rear upper arm.

I suppose another way to view this is that your upper legs and lower torso are being rotated towards contact, but your upper torso is resisting [... in golf it is referred to as an X-Stretch (since when looked down on from a 'sky view', the hip and shoulder lines give a sort of 'X' orientation)]. We could add to the upper body resistance model ... but for now, consider that your hips are attempting to pull your upper torso rotationally towards the ball ... but the upper torso resists ... and when the upper body stops resisting then the upper torso rotation towards the ball accelerates ... which includes the shoulders ... which are attached to the arms ... which are attached to the hands.

 

[undergroundga]

I am gonna send you a pm. I feel bad taking over someone else's thread.

 

[softballphreak]

I am gonna send you a pm. I feel bad taking over someone else's thread.

You've nothing to feel bad about.

People should try to understand that there are not many cut and dry answers when discussing softball. Although there should be reasonable effort not to stray too far off subject, it happens. Many times there is good material in these discussions; even if they stray.

One problem is when people give up on what they are asking for help. The worst case is when they just quit. We try to teach the kids not to give up when they are trying to learn and then we do exactly what we are trying to get them not to do—quit.

Don't let anyone run you anywhere. Someone will benefit from the discussions. Don't assume someone is assing with you; they probably aren't.

You're doing fine undergroundga, your posts (and all other posters) help us keep learning.

PS: undergroundga, I'm not saying you feel that way. This post is a message to all.

 

[undergroundga]

That said, what I'm trying to get an idea of (well actually I've got an idea just trying to continue clearing it up) is proper sequence. I asked FFS if he could also(cause he seems to have a knack for it) include pictures of each point.
It's funny how I've watched countless dvds, videos, and perused many threads to understand this. Right now it seems to be clicking.
My dd has a good hitting coach but that is only 30 minutes a week. The rest of the time she is with me and I'm trying to improve my understanding so I can be an aide not a hinderance.
Thanks to all for the help.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The first response to this post, by Bouldersdad, answered the question ... "Fast hands equates to a quick swing" and explained the need for "proper mechanics". At least up to this point, I'm not seeing the thread as being off topic.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

It’s about preparing to swing … or if you’d like, to make a throw. What the body does, well ahead of the brain learning if the pitch is a ‘ball’ or ‘strike’, makes a huge difference in terms of “how fast the hands are” (i.e., swing quickness).

To have ‘fast hands’, which is basically a “fast swing sequence”, you have to have “slow hands” during the load … relatively speaking. Why is that? Because it is all about the “sequence”. When we tell a hitter to avoid being rushed … we are telling them not to perform their ‘stretch’ too quickly … not to load their hands too quickly. The quicker the ‘stretch’ is performed, the tougher it is for a hitter to time events for having a good swing sequence. That is … if one effectively brings their hands back too quickly, then it will be more difficult for them to time having their lower body initiate their swing. That is why I like to speak of the ‘stretch’ in terms of being involved in responding to a body's Fwd-by-Coiling action by serving a dual purpose of maintaining balance … so that that the stretch doesn’t get ahead, or speed up, to the point where the lower body fails to capture transition.

 

[undergroundga]

Thanks. Super help!

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Start slower and earlier .....

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Posted the following elsewhere and thought I'd post it here as well ... it relates to the above.

--

Bautista described the issue perfectly IMO.

He said … “I did have to make some changes to my hitting approach”. He then described the issue … he said, “Because I used to get started so late”.

Even better … Bautista perfectly described the issue of being late … he described it as a feeling of being rushed … and he demo’d the portion of his swing that would be rushed … and IMO, he nailed it 100% … he absolutely nailed the reason … he nailed the portion, that when rushed, kills the swing … what he demo’d was in effect having his ‘stretch’ rushed … rushing bringing his hands back as his hips moved forward.

The problem with being rushed … or at least one significant problem with rushing "the bringing back of the hands" is that it makes it incredibly tough to get the sequence correct … it makes it incredibly difficult to get the lower body to capture transition. When the hands are jerked back quickly … you are rushed … and the odds increase dramatically that your sequence will be degraded. See video segment below which discusses this from a golfing perspective.

IMO Bautista knocked it out of the park with his comment … “start slower and earlier”.

Then he added … “start slower on the way back”.

That is so friggin key that it isn't funny! It’s one of the biggest flaws in young hitters. And it's often one of the quickest ways to get a kid hitting well.

Think back to Donny's comments on a 'hitch' ... and how someone with a hitch has a near perfect ability to time the bringing of the hips forward while the hands go back. That timing ... that movement of the hips forward ... that forward by coiling ... WHILE the hands move back ... as we use our upper body to 'balance' and 'stretch' ... that timing is absolutely KEY.

When Bautista felt it click he said … “I felt like my hands flew through the zone”. “That’s when I felt it click”. “This is how it should feel”. What he was describing, IMO, was the result of the SnF action accelerating his barrel to contact when he didn’t rush the ‘stretch’. He learned that 'sequence' does trump all ... and he learned "not to rush".

Below Paul Wilson discusses whether their should be a pause at the top of the golf swing. Paul is basically trying to help people learn to capture transition with their lower body. Note that 1:24 he speaks of having a “fast” looking golf swing … that is the issue he’s targeting. At 2:09 Paul describes it very well … he describes the ‘rushing’ that we associate with the ‘stretch’ and he explains how rushing this area screws up one’s ability to capture transition with the lower body. The recommendation is to slow that area of the swing down.

 

[SCflashes]

FiveFrameSwing, is there a drill that can be done to reinforce hips going forward while hands go back? Thanks.