IR/drop explanation of spin

There are tons of ways to skin that cat.........

Thats why these two world class pitchers don't use the same mechanics to throw the "perfect peel":



But they BOTH get the thumb facing the catcher at the moment of release......and they BOTH use INTERNAL ROTATION to get it there........

And so does this world class pitcher.........



One more thing you may notice with good peel drop pitchers is how the elbow gets slightly "stuck" behind the rib cage so the thumb can get rotated forward sooner. Effectively cutting off the release a bit sooner/lower.......

Best Regards.......

Mike said:

Bill,
Can you explain how ball position at 12 can effect the release? And why 3rd base as opposed to pointing at the catcher? And critique my thoughts on the fingertips. Thanks

Mike

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Mike, quite simply, if she has her wrist curled, or turned in an incorrect way at the 12:00 position, then the ball is not going to come downward in the correct way. A lot of young pitcher, especially ones making the transition from the 11" to 12" ball have a habit of "Curling" their wrist. The wrist stays this way until the release point and that alters the spin and speed. The wrist is already in a "snapped" position when being released and therefore speed is lost. The ball will also come out of the hand sideways. If the ball is facing 2nd base at the 12:00 position, they are likely going to be missing the elbow whip which is part of the kenetic chain necessary to create maximum speed and spin. The elbow whip really gets lost in the drop ball because it's the first step in this chain and will help produce a TON of spin. If a pitcher's elbow is locked (as many of them are) they are selling themselves short on speed and spin.

Basically, if the ball is turned towards 3rd base at 12:00, you will likely reach your release point with the finger tips pointed downward and the ball will roll straight off... 6/12 spin.

However, bad spin is usually the fault of a bad wrist position at 12:00 or going around the hips at release. Both of these mostly cause bullet or side spin.

"Pulling up" on it is not necessary. In fact, it's counter productive. I don't understand why things get taught to pitchers which contradict other mechanics they are taught for speed. Like stepping short and/or pulling up. Neither of these things is being done when she's trying to throw her hardest, so why teach them for a pitch? Not only is it confusing because she now has to learn a WHOLE new release point and snap, but she's going to lose her velocity since that's not what she does when trying to throw hard. Most PC's will tell you to step short on the drop because it helps shorten the release point and changes the trajectory of the ball. Ok. I get that. But personally, I don't do that because then I'm not pushing and using my legs as hard. The earlier release can be done by simply letting the ball go sooner, I don't think anyone needs to change their stride for that to happen. Yes, it takes timing to keep the maximum push and early release but in the long run I think timing is much easier to learn than all these multiple releases and mechanics that are being taught for various pitches.

Bill

Good posts guys. Nice supporting video Board. I am a little confused by your post #18 though. When you say he was paying attention in class, are you saying a percentage of bullet spin is the way to create curve break in along with down per the left hand visual in the first post of the thread???

Bill,

What do you see your hips doing relative to your shoulders on the downswing?

Thanks, those posts make alot of sense, good clips. One thing that looks similiar in each of those three is the release angle appears to be the same. My daughter does have small hands and I believe she tends to slow down a bit to not lose grip on the ball, she just switched to the 12" a few months ago. And I will check to make sure her hand is not cocked and her elbow is not locked. I guess we can't go further until I am sure of this. Not sure what this has to do with anything but all three of there glove hands do the same, swim out a bit and they don't appear to slap there thighs.
Thanks again guys. The big bold moves are easy to spot but the finer points tend to get overlooked.

Mike

I don't understand a lot of the physics behind pitching. All I know is my DD was 11 when taught the drop and it took months and months for her to even throw 1 out of 10 that would actually drop. It was very frustrating. When she turned 12, her pitching coach decided to move on and taught her the basics of a curve ball. Lo and behold, after 3 lessons of curve ball, the drop ball is beautiful and actually drops. I don't question it, I just enjoy it.

Mark H said:

Bill,

What do you see your hips doing relative to your shoulders on the downswing?

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Mark, I see an earlier closure of my hips in the clip BM put up. But if this was my "cutter drop" which breaks down and in to a RH batter, then I will close my hips slighter to start the ball in that trajectory. Finger pressure adjusts the spin to about 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock rotation to make it break in ward. Remember, the only time I will throw side to side pitches is when they also move up and down.

Bill

Hillhouse said:

Mark, I see an earlier closure of my hips in the clip BM put up.

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I agree.

Hillhouse said:

But if this was my "cutter drop" which breaks down and in to a RH batter, then I will close my hips slighter to start the ball in that trajectory. Finger pressure adjusts the spin to about 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock rotation to make it break in ward. Remember, the only time I will throw side to side pitches is when they also move up and down.

Bill

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I pretty much agree with flat breaking pitches being less valuable than up and down. OTOH, a pitch breaking down and away would be breaking along the length of the bat in the swing plane. A rise crossing at the shoulders or thereabouts would be breaking directly ninety degrees away from the swing plane. My thought, mentioned before, is the relationship of the break referenced as up or down compared to the ground is less relevant than the relationship of the break relative to the eyes and the swing plane. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Bill:
Your comments seemed specific to the peel drop with repsect to the ball rolling off of the fingers with the fingers pointing to the ground at release. This is related to the ball position at 12:00 which I understand. You suggest that the release be slightly earlier than the fastball, if I understand correctly. My DD (14 years old) throws a roll over drop using the internal rotation that has been suggested here. My question is....From the 12:00 position, using internal rotation, if a pitcher is pulling (palm up) the ball from 12:00 to 6:00 rather than pushing (palm down) the ball creating the elbow whip, would the release point not be slightly later than the fastball for a roll over drop? Her dop ball is decent, but I would like to see it a bit sharper. There is very little difference in speed between her drop and fast ball, both of which could be faster (currently about 50mph)

Mark H said:

Good posts guys. Nice supporting video Board. I am a little confused by your post #18 though. When you say he was paying attention in class, are you saying a percentage of bullet spin is the way to create curve break in along with down per the left hand visual in the first post of the thread???

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Mark, JC's interpetation of the front wheel on a car is spot on. That wheel is ALWAYS turning perpendicular to it's axel, AND perpendicular to the ground. In otherwords, it's ALWAYS turning 6-12. Changing the axel orientation from directly perpendicular to intended force line causes the car to turn toward the axel orientation, because the wheel is biting the road (friction point) into the axel orientation. It doesn't change the rotation away from 6-12 over the axel.
Viewed from the driver/pitcher, this wheel will bite to the right......



The magnus effect of creating a low/high pressure fields above and below the ball also causes the ball to move toward the lowest resistance, which in this case is toward the axel (axis) orientation that the object is spinning around.

When an objects axel (axis) orientation is parallel to the force line, what is created is called "rifling". This gear is "rifling". Rifling causes a gyroscopic stability to the object, causing it to "hold its trajectory" more efficiently. Which is the reason that gun barrels are "rifled" with twist lines causing the projectile to rotate over an axis that is parallel to the force line, adding gyroscopic stability:



Don't confuse "rifling" (bullet spin) with 6-12 rotation over a slightly tilted axel (axis).

JC did not.......And is why I said he was "paying attention in class", as this aspect of spin was discussed in a prior thread.

This is the spin Bill is creating with his "cut" drop to cause it to break both down AND in:

The bottom spin is thirty percent rotated toward bullet spin. I don't doubt it will break some-kind of like a baseball slider or cutter. If that's working for you great but I'd like more. The greatest amount of magnus force is when the axis is perpendicular to ball flight. If I want a drop curve, I still want the axis to be perpendicular to the ball flight path. I just want it tilted over at 45 degrees give or take. And I'd like to throw that rh drop curve to left handers.