Drop ball and internal rotation

First, this is about getting the "big break" on the ball. I'm not talking about a 2 inch dip--I'm talking about 12 to 15 inch break. To get the "big" break, there a number of factors to consider on a drop ball.

Axis wobble: That is, if the release isn't quite right, the axis will not remain perfectly parallel to the ground during flight but will wobble. The physics term for this is "precession".

Angle of axis with ground: For the big break, the axis has to be parallel with the ground.

RPMs: The drop ball has more RPMs than a fastball, which is why you use a slightly different grip.

Velocity: A drop is slightly slower than a fastball. Usually, it is 2 or 3 MPH slower.

Release point: The ball is released later for a drop ball than a fastball.

To throw a drop or rise correctly requires minute adjustments in the release. You can't tell someone how to "perfectly" throw the pitch. The pitcher has to get out on the mound and play with it to get a feel for what works and what doesn't work. (Some kids like to play with making the ball do strange things, and some don't. Those that do learn how to throw breaking pitches.)

This is my DD as a college freshman throwing a drop. When she was really good in college, she had more leg drive. She also end her drop with her right shoulder pointing at the catcher. She lifted during the off-season three to five times a week and developed very strong shoulders in order to really spin the ball.

As a disclaimer, THIS IS NOT A FASTBALL. If your DD doesn't know how to throw a fastball "in her bones", messing around with this pitch could result in her picking up really bad habits.

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sluggers said:

Angle of axis with ground: For the big break, the axis has to be parallel with the ground.

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You can apply this principle to every breaking pitch if you say the ball rotation axis needs to be perpendicular, as much as possible, to ball flight. Many kids only get to two thirds backspin on the rise and are still pretty effective. I see too many kids who "have" several different pitches and the ball spin is pretty much the same on each of them. Scouting kids who are trying to find a college I see the coach keep putting down different fingers but the pitches look the same except for usually one real breaking pitch. Put tape on the ball or mark it with a magic marker with a stripe and don't lie to your self about ball spin.

sluggers said:

Angle of axis with ground: For the big break, the axis has to be parallel with the ground.

RPMs: The drop ball has more RPMs than a fastball, which is why you use a slightly different grip.

Velocity: A drop is slightly slower than a fastball. Usually, it is 2 or 3 MPH slower.

Release point: The ball is released later for a drop ball than a fastball.

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Sluggers with all due respect, I don't think I could possibly disagree with you more on these things.

Bill

I don't get surprised my much but that does surprise me. I don't see anything arguable about spin axis orientation or that more rpm is good. I'd love to hear you expand on your disagreement.

Mark

Axis with parallel to the ground I agree with. That will ensure straight end over end (6 to 12) rotation. It's the other parts.

I didn't say more RPM's was bad. But this post makes it sound like something extra is necessary to increase the RPM's. I've never made a secret of saying that a "fastball" is a joke in softball pitching. It is. Why the hell would anyone want to throw a straight pitch on purpose? Anyway, if someone has 6/12 rotation on their "fastball" then they can make the ball go down by changing the trajectory of the release point. It's not an extra movement or additional thing that creates more RPM's. Basically the "fastball" and drop are identical, with different release points. A "fastball" is simply let go later and hangs in the zone, reaching the catcher before it has time to go down due to the angle of trajectory. It really doesn't get more simple than that. With that said, to think the ball needs to be released LATER than the "fastball" as was suggested is the opposite. The later the ball is released, the higher the trajectory. Anyone with even moderate velocity will have the ball reach the catcher BEFORE it even has a chance to go down. I also don't think velocity needs to change, let alone decrease. For sure, a pitcher can "overthrow" a pitch and that makes it flat. But assuming the timing is set and working on that particular day, the velocity should be no different than what a "fastball" is. To think the velocity needs to decrease would imply that something extra is happening in the release which is different to that of a "fastball". I think it's just a case of release point, assuming the rotation is correct. Most dads, catchers, and coaches who catch for pitchers often say they notice their "fastball" has a drop to it sometimes. This is because they throw a peel drop and don't even realize it most of the time. They simply let the ball go sooner. The 6/12 rotation and the fact it didn't have to go up (high release trajectory) before it can break down makes the ball fall off the table. A shorter stride is not necessary... that can subtract power and speed, which we want when throwing pitches! When people tell you to step short, they are trying to get the pitcher to change the release point. I maintain the pitcher can change the release by letting the ball go sooner... not needing to step short and sacrifice power for it to happen!!

Bill

OK now I understand your viewpoint. So we’ve got a loose whippy arm giving us good spin on our fastball/drop. And now we want more/bigger break. So we set up a string about release point high and put it part way between the rubber and the plate throwing the ball over the string and breaking it down to the knees or lower. Then we move the string closer to the plate and do it again till it gets easy. Rinse and repeat. So how do we get this bigger/sharper/harder break?

One factor that helps with sharper break is a shorter/sharper release. Many pitchers will carry the ball in their hand too long, or take too long to get the ball out. If the release is short start to finish, the ball will break faster. In the case of a drop it will go from being a gentle decline to more like a waterfall.

I was hoping this discussion would shed some light for me, and I know others wonder the same thing...an image from one of the IR threads shows that a fastball spins (from a catchers perspective) like this:


From where I sit, when we talk about optimal drop ball spin, people usually refer to a 12-6 (catchers perspective) spin. Hillhouse states "Axis with parallel to the ground I agree with. That will ensure straight end over end (6 to 12) rotation."

OK, if the image above has 12-6 spin, then we can at least agree that the axis is deviated (not perpendicular to flight path). While it may have 12-6 spin and the axis is parallel to the ground, wouldn't optimal drop ball spin also be on an axis that is perpendicular to the flight path?

One step further, if optimal drop ball spin is on an axis that is both parallel to the ground AND perpendicular to flight path, then how does a pitcher using IR modify their delivery to get that optimal drop spin instead of the fastball spin as shown in the gear image above? Bill, when you say not to change anything except to simply release earlier, is this what corrects the spin? Or should I be comfortable with the gear spin as above for a good drop? I admit I am confused???


My DD's fastball spin is similar to the image above, but the axis is slightly more deviated(less perpendicular to flight path but still parallel to ground), making the spin even less optimal for a drop ball (IMO). She changed to throwing using IR this fall and I suspected early on that this question would have to be addressed, based on the spin I was seeing, when it came time to start working on a drop.

I defer to the group for answers, but I suspect this is along the lines of what the OP wanted answered. Thanks!

Bill,

Basically the "fastball" and drop are identical, with different release points. A "fastball" is simply let go later and hangs in the zone, reaching the catcher before it has time to go down due to the angle of trajectory.

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Bill, you're wrong.

Most good pitchers have a really great rise ball, so they use a drop as a way to throw off the batters. If you have a batter worried about a rise, you don't need a great drop. Then you do what you describe which is put some English on the ball to make it move a little.

That was not the situation with my DD. She couldn't throw a rise to save her soul. She had a 61 mph fastball in a game. She wouldn't have lasted 2 innings without something else.

She could throw the ball about 1 inch over a 3 foot obstacle that was placed 20 feet in front of her and hit the middle of the plate (not middle of the strike zone, the middle of the plate). You can only get that kind of real sharp break on the ball if there are additional downward forces on the ball other than gravity.

She got a wad of money and a closet full of newspaper clippings, plaques, medals and trophies for throwing the darn thing. Perhaps there are other ways to throw it.

Angle of axis with ground:

The spin axis of the ball is parallel to the ground for a drop ball or a rise ball. I've never heard of anyone disagreeing with this.

RPMs If the RPMs are the same for a fastball and a drop, then you aren't going to get a real sharp break. In another thread said that you said you used a different method of release for a drop. You were talking about Osterman using a "man's method of throwing a drop". She uses a three-finger grip when she throws a drop. Why use different grips then if aren't trying to increase the spin?

Velocity

My DD's fastball versus her drop ball was clocked many, many times in college. The coaches were always pushing her to throw her drop faster. (In practice, not in games, because she would change speeds on everything in the game.) She could hit 64-65 mph with a fastball. Her drop would be around 61 mph.

She didn't necessarily "want" her drop to be slower than her fastball.

Release point

You have to release a drop ball later, with a higher trajectory. If you don't release the ball later (with a higher trajectory) the ball hits the ground about 10 feet in front of the plate. You have to "start it out higher"

sluggers said:

Bill,
Bill, you're wrong.

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Easy there big'un. Bill is a successful instructor AND pitcher. I don't think any of us disagree on the ball spin and axis. I think it's point of view, terminology and teaching philosophy. I suggest throttling back a little and exploring Bill's perspective and meaning.