Backswing vs. no backswing

I know there have been many discussions on whether or not having a backswing in the pitching motion is helpful or harmful to the pitch. My DD has recently changed from having a backswing to not having a backswing (as Hillhouse teaches) due to inconsistentcy of pitch location. When we began to think about why her consistency was lacking, I looked at a lot of slow motion video that I took with my phone. Everything I looked at was basically the same except for the backswing of the arm. One pitch the arm would be in one spot and the next it would be in another when she began the downswing. I had one of those "AHA" moments. Her arm circle was being altered by the inconsistent backswing thus making her pitch location inconsistent. I know most on here probably already know that but for those of you, like myself, who are learning as we go, I thought that this information could be helpful. If anyone has any thoughts, please share!!

Another thing you might want to consider too. When a pitcher brings the arm back, they will lean forward at the waist. Then as the arm starts forward, they start their forward drive and push off.

When switching to straight out of the glove, that feeling of still neediong to lean forward may still be there. Instead of a bend at the waist, get the entire body on a forward lean and THEN drive forward and push off.

The traditional leap and drag wind up is built into the double pump. It is the double pump, without the backswing. So shesbeen doing it all along and just didnt realize it. She'll figure it out quick.

My own DD has never done the backswing. She has a windup similar to Hillhouse's. This is just one style. I don't see any one as being the best or worst. It is easy to troubleshoot when mechanical issues arise.

Boomers2012 said:

I know there have been many discussions on whether or not having a backswing in the pitching motion is helpful or harmful to the pitch. My DD has recently changed from having a backswing to not having a backswing (as Hillhouse teaches) due to inconsistentcy of pitch location. When we began to think about why her consistency was lacking, I looked at a lot of slow motion video that I took with my phone. Everything I looked at was basically the same except for the backswing of the arm. One pitch the arm would be in one spot and the next it would be in another when she began the downswing. I had one of those "AHA" moments. Her arm circle was being altered by the inconsistent backswing thus making her pitch location inconsistent. I know most on here probably already know that but for those of you, like myself, who are learning as we go, I thought that this information could be helpful. If anyone has any thoughts, please share!!

Click to expand...

Read the other back arm swing thread started by Hal, that I brought back up for your benefit. Don't know why Hal didn't lead you to it. The question he asked was if the back swing added speed. I think there are no good reasons to use it, even though 70% or more girls use it from LL to the pros. Men don't use it, but they did 40 years ago for a short time. This is where it came from and it never stopped in the girls game. Don't let her go back to the back arm swing. JMHO

Boomers2012 said:

I know there have been many discussions on whether or not having a backswing in the pitching motion is helpful or harmful to the pitch. My DD has recently changed from having a backswing to not having a backswing (as Hillhouse teaches) due to inconsistentcy of pitch location. When we began to think about why her consistency was lacking, I looked at a lot of slow motion video that I took with my phone. Everything I looked at was basically the same except for the backswing of the arm. One pitch the arm would be in one spot and the next it would be in another when she began the downswing. I had one of those "AHA" moments. Her arm circle was being altered by the inconsistent backswing thus making her pitch location inconsistent. I know most on here probably already know that but for those of you, like myself, who are learning as we go, I thought that this information could be helpful. If anyone has any thoughts, please share!!

Click to expand...

Read the other back arm swing thread started by Hal, that I brought back up for your benefit. Don't know why Hal didn't lead you to it. The question he asked was if the back swing added speed. I think there are no good reasons to use it, even though 70% or more girls use it from LL to the pros. Men don't use it, but they did 40 years ago for a short time. This is where it came from and it never stopped in the girls game.

When my DD first started going to Hillhouse for lessons, he told her his reasons for not liking the backswing all of which are explained in his videos. But he did NOT make her change, we did it voluntarily after hearing his reasons.

1. 99% of the time it makes people lock their elbows, then they never unlock them to get a whip action during the delivery.

2. It shows everyone the ball and grip on the ball prematurely. And his words were prophetic as we now see more and more college pitchers on TV trying to "hide the ball" more and more. So with all the attempts at hiding it, why drop out and show it?

3. USUALLY, pitchers that do a back swing do not push forward with the glove hand. This means 1/2 of their body is virtually useless. Yet when we run and jump, we use both arms for momentum. Yet in pitching, a lot of pitchers only use 1/2 of their body leaving behind a tremendous amount of power from not utilizing the glove hand.

4. A lot of pitchers with the backswing have a "swimming problem" with the glove hand. Once the hands separate, the glove hand is free to go swimming. The longer the hands stay together, the less time the glove has to go sideways.

All 4 points make PERFECT sense. He did warn that she will feel like she's losing speed when making the transition. This is because she's not using shoulder muscle many more so it doesn't have the same "feel" to it. And when she gets the timing right of using the glove hand to help her entire body, she will add speed. She will add movement by getting that whip of the elbow from it not being locked. And she'll not be giving everyone a look at her grip ahead of time. So, it's our belief the pros of not doing it out weigh the cons in the long run. X pitcher I have been to see the best men's teams in the country at the Erie PA tournament and some of these pitchers do have a backswing. Your blanket statement of "men don't do it" is flat out wrong. Most do not do it, that is for sure. But I saw several that did. I know one pitcher from Australia (who actually stays at Bill's house during summer), Folkart(?) conceals his pitch so well that they actually changed the rules because of his dominance, that's what we were told.

CG

CG, I have said men don't use the back arm swing, but I should have said almost 99% of the men and none of the top 10 best men pitchers don't use the back arm swing since the early 70s. Show me a picture of a man that uses a back arm swing, now a days.
So you see a few of the best teams in the Erie, Pa. tournament. The Erie thing was cancelled and brought back all of the sudden.
Adam Folkard from Australia is another story. ISF rules were changed from after he won the 2009 ISF WT, to no arm pause like he did with ball in glove while he leaped with two feet in the air, and separated his hands after the replant. They legalized the leap and replant and banned the ball in glove with an arm pause, in 2010, but in 2012 modified the rule to allow the arm pause but the hands had to be separated and the ball could not stay in the glove with the arm pause. ISF rule is the same for females but none leaped and replanted, in last years 2012 Women ISF WT in Canada. Very few if any hoped and replanted even though they were allowed to. New Zeland won the 2013 ISF WT in New Zeland in March. The ISF WT is every 2 years now. FYI Japan won the last female ISF WT.
CG do you believe everything you hear and read on here? ISF is still two feet on the rubber. I love Bill's monthly news letter don't you? Is his son pitching yet?

CG,
I disagree with points 1,3 & 4. That said, I personally like driving with the hands together.

Ken how could you disagree? On what basis, your own pitching career? Gimme a break.

How you cannot think pitchers lock their elbow in the beginning, then show the hitters the ball/grip when they drop out is beyond me. Both happen with startling frequency. And the swimming thing is not something I would think anyone would dispute. How can you not think the earlier the hands come apart the more freedom the glove has to swim? Nobody is saying that is the sole cause of swimming but is a huge contributing factor.

Parts 1-2 are more advanced than the others. 12U pitchers are not generally worried about "tipping their pitches" but they should be. The sooner they train for now and future.

CG.

The backswing can seriously adjust the mechanics of the pitch. Be very careful when adjusting it, as it has a cascade effect on timing.

I also prefer the ball in the glove, both hands thrown forward along with the stride foot at pushoff, however, in my experience small/skinny pitchers without much strength can actually benefit speed-wise from dropping the ball out of the glove for a longer backswing. The problem here is that girls are often very flexible and will over-exaggerate the backswing to the point where the ball is almost over their head backwards. The time it takes for the ball to come down from this position and actually cross the hip makes the arm circle very retarded in comparison to the leg drive, and the pitcher will have to create mechanical flaws to adjust for this.

-W