Not sure what you're saying, CJ. ... Which scenario are you talking about? If a forceout is applied, that's a fielder's choice, right?
Scoring: Can a forceout be scored a hit?
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Not sure what you're saying, CJ. ... Which scenario are you talking about? If a forceout is applied, that's a fielder's choice, right?
I don't ever recall a ball being hit into center field at any level, baseball included and the center fielder playing the ball on one hop and throwing the runner out at first...
This is why in my opinion, the only choice for the center fielder is to throw to 2B. Therefore taking away the "choice" to go to 1B. So IMO, to call this play a fielders choice and not award a base hit to the batter doesn't seem right. But I'm no umpire and this rule already seems a little "grey" because of the "ordinary effort" description in the rule book.
This is why in my opinion, the only choice for the center fielder is to throw to 2B. Therefore taking away the "choice" to go to 1B. So IMO, to call this play a fielders choice and not award a base hit to the batter doesn't seem right. But I'm no umpire and this rule already seems a little "grey" because of the "ordinary effort" description in the rule book.
OK, I see what you're saying. ... IMO, it doesn't matter if the fielder had a legitimate choice to go to first. For example, let's say you have a runner on first and the shortstop dives and knocks down a hard grounder headed for CF. The ball rolls toward 2B. By the time the SS retrieves the ball, the only play is to 2B, where the SS records the out. That's still a fielder's choice, and certainly not a hit, right?
The 'ordinary' effort clause, as I understand it, does not apply to the force play, but to non-forced preceding runners - Let's say you have a runner on second base and a groundball to SS. The SS fields and tags the runner trying for third. That's a fielder's choice out if the play requires ordinary effort, IMO.
PS - My best friend got thrown out from CF in a 15U league game. Not sure if he was loafing, but he was not the fastest and the CF was playing shallow and had a gun (later played in college). Funniest thing ever (to his friends).
Getting thrown out at 1B from center is not a story I would want repeated...ever! Your friend will be 85 in a nursing home and you'll show up for a visit a say "remember that summer when we were 15...." lol
I nearly threw out a guy at first from medium deep left feild in a baseball game. Granted he hurt his ankle coming out of the box and barely was able to hobble to first ahead of the throw and immediately came out of the game afterwards but still.
I have seen numberous times at the MLB level where there is a 7-6 force out. Generally it is on a ball that the runner has to hold on to avoid being doubled off if caught but it falls in front of left fielder who then has a force out at 3rd. In no case would that ever be credited as a base hit to the batter. Sometimes it's just bad luck that you don't get a hit on a ball you should. But othertimes a fielder misplays a ball so badly or loses one in the sun/lights that what should have been a routine out becomes a triple. You play the game long enough and those things tend to even out.
I have seen numberous times at the MLB level where there is a 7-6 force out. Generally it is on a ball that the runner has to hold on to avoid being doubled off if caught but it falls in front of left fielder who then has a force out at 3rd. In no case would that ever be credited as a base hit to the batter. Sometimes it's just bad luck that you don't get a hit on a ball you should. But othertimes a fielder misplays a ball so badly or loses one in the sun/lights that what should have been a routine out becomes a triple. You play the game long enough and those things tend to even out.
In the situation from the original post, it does not matter if there is a play at 1st or not. If a preceding runner is thrown out on the initial play on the ball and it is a force, then the batter cannot be credited a hit. They did not protect the runner. This is a team sport and not about individual performances. Stupid base running doesn't matter.
The only way the batter would get a base hit credit here: IF the original situation occurs (runner on 1st and ball hit to center field) and the throw is to 2nd and the initial base runner is safe due to no error on any fielder, then the batter can be credited with a base hit. In that case, since the a play was attempted, without error, and the runner was safe and the batter was safe and no play existed to take out the batter, there is no fielders choice. Hit Single. Take this same situation and have the ball go into shallow right field however, and then the batter would be credited a fielder's choice, even though everyone was safe.
The only way the batter would get a base hit credit here: IF the original situation occurs (runner on 1st and ball hit to center field) and the throw is to 2nd and the initial base runner is safe due to no error on any fielder, then the batter can be credited with a base hit. In that case, since the a play was attempted, without error, and the runner was safe and the batter was safe and no play existed to take out the batter, there is no fielders choice. Hit Single. Take this same situation and have the ball go into shallow right field however, and then the batter would be credited a fielder's choice, even though everyone was safe.
Curious about this. While 9-3 putouts are not uncommon in SB they aren't often "routine ordinary effort". I don't think I'd ever credit a FC on a ball to RF where all the base runners are safe, that's going to be a H in my book unless there is a clear E9 on the throw or E6/E3 (depending on force at 2nd or 1st) on a dropped ball that would have easily beat the runner.
How does that work. I see slappers hit ground balls to 3rd base or SS where everyone is safe and the scoring is a hit.
Listen folks, here is the magic of scoring. It is a recording of what happened. Not what could have or should have happened but what really happened.
The OP is no different in fact then a ball hit deep in the hole where the SS has to go way to her right. She has no chance at the batter, but if there are runners at 1st and 2nd she has a force play at 3rd. If she makes the play to 3rd, its a FC even though she had no chance at the batter runner going to first.
When I've seen this to right field, as I said in the post above, it's a shallow right field hit, not deep. One where there is a play on the batter-runner. I would say you see this more often on slappers where every fielder is pulled in, so the right fielder would get to the ball quickly.
I think sometimes slappers are given hits when either they are just too fast and there is no play on them, or they hit the ball so hard that it takes hard hops through the infield in such a way that ordinary effort would not retire the batter. But if they could have retired the batter-runner and did not because they chose to go after the lead runner and were unsuccessful in that, the slapper shouldn't be credited a hit. The fielder could have retired the batter but chose not to and instead go after another runner, thus fielders choice.
I agree with you that scoring is a record of what happened, but it is also a record of what should have happened when assigning errors, hits, etc. Should the batter have been retired with ordinary effort, should the runner have been out if the ball was fielded cleanly, that type of thing. And that's where scoring gets tricky. For example, in your opinion, maybe the SS with ordinary effort would have stopped the batted ball, but I believe that it would have been a "Wow" play and thus score a base hit. There are some calls that people won't agree on. But as you noted, in the OP, it is a FC, pure and simple.
I agree with you that scoring is a record of what happened, but it is also a record of what should have happened when assigning errors, hits, etc. Should the batter have been retired with ordinary effort, should the runner have been out if the ball was fielded cleanly, that type of thing. And that's where scoring gets tricky. For example, in your opinion, maybe the SS with ordinary effort would have stopped the batted ball, but I believe that it would have been a "Wow" play and thus score a base hit. There are some calls that people won't agree on. But as you noted, in the OP, it is a FC, pure and simple.
