In response to others but don't want to hijack thread, (anymore then i already kinda did) so starting new one.
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Where the velocity comes from?
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Exactly-
they KNOW what it is that needs to be done... but they just try too damn hard doing it. Or they feel like they are doing what your asking. But they not.
Thank you!-
Rose is trying to drive out with more force, lean, overlap, etc... She is stressing her system in hopes that it will adapt .....her timing is piss-poor (I mean that lovingly...
Rose and I are both excited to work with you. Im excited to see if you can help her, I kinda feel like shes a lost cause (if I'm being completely honest and i might just delete this after i let it hang here for a bit because i would never say that too her or hint at it and if I'm really being honest I do NOT blame her its not her fault shes listening to what her coaches are telling her and shes working at it. I think its a combo of Rose is a hard case and we live in a small, very rural town with not a lot of good instruction. Any other girl would have given up by now if in her situation. She's kinda crazy, but as long as shes passionate about it, I'm gonna help her how I can.
I have to add this...
Im a believer in this forum, Ive read DM and I/R many many times. I could have helped Rose much better if I would have quit looking for a PC near us, and reached out to the people in this forum more. I'm a, I don't want to ask for help type person. A, I feel like I'm bothering people, person. ....Im getting better! But If I would have trusted my instincts and my own knowledge more. I think rose would be better off then she is now. PC recommend us to this site but it was like she never really read the stuff herself or she didn't get as obsessed as I did because she fought me on a lot of the DM stuff and I deferred to her experience till I got the the confidence. Java actually said something to me, that made me believe I knew what I was talking about. I dropped pc, and Rose has progressed. But now I'm fighting learned, ingrained muscle memory and I get the "PC said not to do that" and the fact that Im mom. But, and this is a big Butt Rose is really to the point where she respects my knowledge, did I just say that! I did
(Pitching that is) lol
Im sorry for the horrible grammer! Ok goodnight party's over! Finally!! (This wont make any sense unless you read the other thread)
You are not alone!
So many things you've said resonate with our experience.
1. Trusting our knowledge
2. Asking for help/Getting help from people
3. Searching for a local PC
We too dropped our PC....because it was too conflicting what what we knew to be the right path. DD knows what needs to be done - why?
Because I've taught her, let her see it, read it and experience it.
I think the issue is balancing helping our DDs and not wanting to mess things up because we are not "experts". Guess what - most of the local PCs aren't either.
I got over that and know I'm helping DD mores Than ever and am also helping one of her besties too.
From some of my learnings.....
1. Trust yourself. If you've been here and read the right threads, you are well ahead of the game.
2. Video,video, video - not just your DD to make sure she isn't doing it but it just looks different BUT have her watch elite pitchers during games. Try to pick the pitch, have her watch feet, finished, everything we obsess about. The brain won't know the difference between her actually doing it and watching it. It will make a difference.
3. What they feel and what they do don't match. We used to "debate" about this often. Video stops that. But try talking through what she feels she's doing and then convey how it should feel to do it the way it should be done.
4. Trust yourself. You are awesome. AND, the fact that she respects your knowledge says you are right where you need to be. When we decided to drop our PC, it was a collective decision after we returned from Indiana. DD realized that I was really doing all the coaching and I knew what I was talking about because she kept hearing all the same things from the people who were helping us and at the clinic. She bought in and so did I.
Moth girl - she's bought in because she respects your knowledge. So buy in too. The road ahead has some work to re-train but YOU CAN DO IT!
If my stubborn DD can do it, yours will blow right threw it. Bucket of balls, pitching into a net, video, analyze, repeat. Even have HER teach you how to pitch. That will open up both your eyes. (caution here - my bones can't handle some of this stuff so be prepared) turns out I have a decent screwball.
Edited to correct late night typing issues.
So many things you've said resonate with our experience.
1. Trusting our knowledge
2. Asking for help/Getting help from people
3. Searching for a local PC
We too dropped our PC....because it was too conflicting what what we knew to be the right path. DD knows what needs to be done - why?
Because I've taught her, let her see it, read it and experience it.
I think the issue is balancing helping our DDs and not wanting to mess things up because we are not "experts". Guess what - most of the local PCs aren't either.
I got over that and know I'm helping DD mores Than ever and am also helping one of her besties too.
From some of my learnings.....
1. Trust yourself. If you've been here and read the right threads, you are well ahead of the game.
2. Video,video, video - not just your DD to make sure she isn't doing it but it just looks different BUT have her watch elite pitchers during games. Try to pick the pitch, have her watch feet, finished, everything we obsess about. The brain won't know the difference between her actually doing it and watching it. It will make a difference.
3. What they feel and what they do don't match. We used to "debate" about this often. Video stops that. But try talking through what she feels she's doing and then convey how it should feel to do it the way it should be done.
4. Trust yourself. You are awesome. AND, the fact that she respects your knowledge says you are right where you need to be. When we decided to drop our PC, it was a collective decision after we returned from Indiana. DD realized that I was really doing all the coaching and I knew what I was talking about because she kept hearing all the same things from the people who were helping us and at the clinic. She bought in and so did I.
Moth girl - she's bought in because she respects your knowledge. So buy in too. The road ahead has some work to re-train but YOU CAN DO IT!
If my stubborn DD can do it, yours will blow right threw it. Bucket of balls, pitching into a net, video, analyze, repeat. Even have HER teach you how to pitch. That will open up both your eyes. (caution here - my bones can't handle some of this stuff so be prepared) turns out I have a decent screwball.
Edited to correct late night typing issues.
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Great thread so far. Touches home for me as well, especially the obsessed parent trying to learn and help his DD learn correct mechanics.
What age are your DD's 1bucketmom and mothgirl? Just trying to get perspective. Mine is 10 and we struggle with her accepting my input from what I have gleaned off this forum. We are also trying to break some bad mechanics instructed from local PC. So much of what you both have written matches where you have been. So, I am looking for similar input and ways to break bad habits with dad as PC. Hoping some will share that have been there done that. Thanks for your contributions to the forum!
What age are your DD's 1bucketmom and mothgirl? Just trying to get perspective. Mine is 10 and we struggle with her accepting my input from what I have gleaned off this forum. We are also trying to break some bad mechanics instructed from local PC. So much of what you both have written matches where you have been. So, I am looking for similar input and ways to break bad habits with dad as PC. Hoping some will share that have been there done that. Thanks for your contributions to the forum!
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
not to be a wet blanket, but my experience is that almost all of a pitcher's ability to learn and grow is based on their willingness to practice and their natural ability. I have spent years trying to improve my DDs are whip and leg drive, I literally cannot see any improvement in either. The things she gets, she gets quickly and the things she doesn't get, she doesn't get....ever.
I have done three things that have helped her, I established a framework and expectation for hard work and dedicated practice time, I have given her a basic road map on my understanding of what the best in the world do mechanically, and I found a qualified instructor to teach her how to learn to be a pitcher (grips and spins) once she could throw a ball underhand well.
When I look back on the journey so far, my teaching has failed far more than it has been successful on individual mechanics and yet she has stitched together her flaws in a way that works and is close enough to being mechanically sound to allow her to throw harder than average and develop a couple of good pitches.
Would a PC have been more successful with her had they started with her from day one? maybe, maybe not, could a guru take her now and rewire her into excellence? Possibly, but we think we found a guru and he pretty much never talks about mechanics, it is all grip, spin and location.
We (I) gave up completely on improving overlap/leg drive etc and getting her to match the mechanics of the DM sticky, maybe she will get it someday, maybe not, but after struggling with them for a couple of years we took the improvements we saw (the stepback added an instant 3 mph a little over a year ago) and tried to incorporate them into a stable drive technique that works for her, for her that is using gravity to overcome the initial inertia to stat the pitch, so she uses more of a weight back on the rear stride heel-rolling start now that transitions into what we call BANG BANG (read as left foot-right foot drive as fast as possible).
The concept we use is that she is trying to squeeze the feel of a walkthrough into a legal pitch. The only difference I see in her walkthrough and her regular pitch is that the walkthrough allows her to overcome inertia prior to the instance of drive initiation and on a regular pitch the drive initiation was being used to overcvome inertia, the rolling start more closely mimics the walkthrough for her.
Java mentioned that some girls use a rolling start more effectively at some point so even in defeat our workaround is still his idea and I get no credit for it, but I wanted to mention that for my kid the DM path, whether by my inability to teach, or hers to learn, has not been successful and got to the point where the law of diminishing returns dictated we cut bait and move on to other things.
There is a point in there somewhere, maybe it is that I suck as a coach, maybe it is that there are limits to the ability to transfer a coach's knowledge into player performance, maybe it is that our expectations as parents needs to be tempered by the fundamental understanding that not every arm is destined for 60 mph and a killer riseball so we have to sometimes recalibrate our expectations and change the goal to 55 with great location and that is the best some girls will ever get and that is OK.
I have done three things that have helped her, I established a framework and expectation for hard work and dedicated practice time, I have given her a basic road map on my understanding of what the best in the world do mechanically, and I found a qualified instructor to teach her how to learn to be a pitcher (grips and spins) once she could throw a ball underhand well.
When I look back on the journey so far, my teaching has failed far more than it has been successful on individual mechanics and yet she has stitched together her flaws in a way that works and is close enough to being mechanically sound to allow her to throw harder than average and develop a couple of good pitches.
Would a PC have been more successful with her had they started with her from day one? maybe, maybe not, could a guru take her now and rewire her into excellence? Possibly, but we think we found a guru and he pretty much never talks about mechanics, it is all grip, spin and location.
We (I) gave up completely on improving overlap/leg drive etc and getting her to match the mechanics of the DM sticky, maybe she will get it someday, maybe not, but after struggling with them for a couple of years we took the improvements we saw (the stepback added an instant 3 mph a little over a year ago) and tried to incorporate them into a stable drive technique that works for her, for her that is using gravity to overcome the initial inertia to stat the pitch, so she uses more of a weight back on the rear stride heel-rolling start now that transitions into what we call BANG BANG (read as left foot-right foot drive as fast as possible).
The concept we use is that she is trying to squeeze the feel of a walkthrough into a legal pitch. The only difference I see in her walkthrough and her regular pitch is that the walkthrough allows her to overcome inertia prior to the instance of drive initiation and on a regular pitch the drive initiation was being used to overcvome inertia, the rolling start more closely mimics the walkthrough for her.
Java mentioned that some girls use a rolling start more effectively at some point so even in defeat our workaround is still his idea and I get no credit for it, but I wanted to mention that for my kid the DM path, whether by my inability to teach, or hers to learn, has not been successful and got to the point where the law of diminishing returns dictated we cut bait and move on to other things.
There is a point in there somewhere, maybe it is that I suck as a coach, maybe it is that there are limits to the ability to transfer a coach's knowledge into player performance, maybe it is that our expectations as parents needs to be tempered by the fundamental understanding that not every arm is destined for 60 mph and a killer riseball so we have to sometimes recalibrate our expectations and change the goal to 55 with great location and that is the best some girls will ever get and that is OK.
DD is 11. In many aspects, she's mature for her age and in others not so much. She's big into science and math so I try to incorporate that into everything we are learning. As far as our relationship with my being her PC, it's been a road. We used to really struggle but one day I asked her "who is already there to help you no matter what, and just in softball? When she answered, then we talked about need to be open to my coaching, listening, trying and work better together.
I had things to change too.... Like: being more patient, making practices more fun, letting her design the practice. I think these three items were critical, especially letting her determine what we are focusing on at practice.
Another key thing.....she has big goals for her softball career BUT doesn't typically instigate practice. By her own admission, she loves softball. We made a deal that we would determine practice days together then she'd do it without hesitation. It's been working.
For a long time, I thought she really didn't like softball or pitching because she didn't ask to practice. Turns out, it's just not her right now.
Examples of things we've used:
Technique app - for videos of her pitching. You can slow it down frame by frame and also use graphics to highlight particular movements. For example, when we were working getting into a good lean position, we'd use the angled line, when we were working on getting the stride leg out we used the graphic that allows us to measure degrees. The key - let her critique herself. It's amazing to here how much she knows and how she can pick up so many minor things. I'd recommend this, if for nothing else to gauge how much your DD knows about what she's doing. It's a different level of engagement.
Brian Cain's YouTube video to FSU: https://youtu.be/epmRoZFHPPM
Covers what's needed to be a successful ball player in the moment.
------
It's a partnership that has to be bought into and balanced with your parental responsibilities.
It's understanding what motivates your DD and how she works best.
It's knowing how to push without it being a parent nagging thing.
Sometimes it's knowing when to walk away.
It's also knowing yourself and when you need to change.
We don't have it all figured out but this I know for sure.....
We enjoy practices more
She's made real progress
She believes in me as her PC
I believe in her
Neither one of us miss the old PC - and we really liked him.
I had things to change too.... Like: being more patient, making practices more fun, letting her design the practice. I think these three items were critical, especially letting her determine what we are focusing on at practice.
Another key thing.....she has big goals for her softball career BUT doesn't typically instigate practice. By her own admission, she loves softball. We made a deal that we would determine practice days together then she'd do it without hesitation. It's been working.
For a long time, I thought she really didn't like softball or pitching because she didn't ask to practice. Turns out, it's just not her right now.
Examples of things we've used:
Technique app - for videos of her pitching. You can slow it down frame by frame and also use graphics to highlight particular movements. For example, when we were working getting into a good lean position, we'd use the angled line, when we were working on getting the stride leg out we used the graphic that allows us to measure degrees. The key - let her critique herself. It's amazing to here how much she knows and how she can pick up so many minor things. I'd recommend this, if for nothing else to gauge how much your DD knows about what she's doing. It's a different level of engagement.
Brian Cain's YouTube video to FSU: https://youtu.be/epmRoZFHPPM
Covers what's needed to be a successful ball player in the moment.
------
It's a partnership that has to be bought into and balanced with your parental responsibilities.
It's understanding what motivates your DD and how she works best.
It's knowing how to push without it being a parent nagging thing.
Sometimes it's knowing when to walk away.
It's also knowing yourself and when you need to change.
We don't have it all figured out but this I know for sure.....
We enjoy practices more
She's made real progress
She believes in me as her PC
I believe in her
Neither one of us miss the old PC - and we really liked him.
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
Hmmm... so many good thoughts on here. JJ is always making good points.
I didn't write the DM thread as a template... just as a way to expand on what kids do naturally... and also to help kids develop better timing. Really despise templates... or boxed instruction... it's more about increasing efficiency in the motion.
The guru you have seen has developed into a close friend and mentor... and he admittedly struggles with speed. I don't view this as a weakness of his... but instead a strength of focus.
This game is about so much more than one area. I BEG all of my advanced students to see other instructors... as the insight and value of combining information is what will make them better... as well as give them effective strategies to overcome poor advice... or advice that is contrary to their development. Point being... it's not what you take from someone else... it's what you do with it that really matters... or how you make it yours.
I've seen old video of your DD... and the lack of improvement or change you see is something I totally disagree with... but I also don't see her everyday... so the changes are much more obvious on my end. Just like my wife hasn't realized how much my 6-pack abs have turned into a belly button beer coozie... really... she hasn't noticed...
Our roll as parents and instructors is invaluable... and anyone that hails from dfp is doing much, much more good than bad.
I didn't write the DM thread as a template... just as a way to expand on what kids do naturally... and also to help kids develop better timing. Really despise templates... or boxed instruction... it's more about increasing efficiency in the motion.
The guru you have seen has developed into a close friend and mentor... and he admittedly struggles with speed. I don't view this as a weakness of his... but instead a strength of focus.
This game is about so much more than one area. I BEG all of my advanced students to see other instructors... as the insight and value of combining information is what will make them better... as well as give them effective strategies to overcome poor advice... or advice that is contrary to their development. Point being... it's not what you take from someone else... it's what you do with it that really matters... or how you make it yours.
I've seen old video of your DD... and the lack of improvement or change you see is something I totally disagree with... but I also don't see her everyday... so the changes are much more obvious on my end. Just like my wife hasn't realized how much my 6-pack abs have turned into a belly button beer coozie... really... she hasn't noticed...
Our roll as parents and instructors is invaluable... and anyone that hails from dfp is doing much, much more good than bad.
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
She noticed
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
And I never thought you were a boxed instruction guy...the DM sticky shows that. The fact that my kid can't implement some of the changes that are clearly shown is due to my incompetence and her lack of some basic athletic ability.
That is more just a realistic assessment than a slam on me or DD, I think she is growing into a phenomenal pitcher, but her commitment to practice, 5-10 frame, king crab limbs and Dr J hands along with getting her real instruction from Rich and Don Sarno directly (and you, Hillhouse and Rick virtually) are more responsible than my instruction or her athleticism.
That is more just a realistic assessment than a slam on me or DD, I think she is growing into a phenomenal pitcher, but her commitment to practice, 5-10 frame, king crab limbs and Dr J hands along with getting her real instruction from Rich and Don Sarno directly (and you, Hillhouse and Rick virtually) are more responsible than my instruction or her athleticism.
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
She's a great kid that hails from a great pops. I know you weren't speaking negatively on DM... my days of getting huffy on threads were exhausted by posters in the outfield...
