When instructing to throw the Barrel is follow through a no Teach?

[RayR]

Good thought here....I assume you are talking about the upper arm - can't throw the hands and thus the barrel properly is the elbow is not leveraging under the hands....

As it relates to throwing....many girls are taught to take the ball up to the big "L" position and then throw....it should be a blended action....as the hand comes up the elbow is slotting getting under the ball/hand and leading the throw creating a whip of the arm....same principle behind windmill - elbow leads the hand....

Back to hitting - it is why a good swing will look like it borders on the bat drag position of the elbow getting ahead of the hands....

the slotting action of the back elbow is actually a loading action, rather than an unloading action. This basic underlying action occurs naturally when we throw overhand, but gets coached out of kids or overlooked entirely in hitting.

It should be a no teach. Extension is a by-product of a well synced and technically correct throwing motion. Do players with good throwing mechanics get extension when throwing a ball? Does an infielder or outfielder think about getting extension when they throw the ball? When I throw a ball, it's impossible for me to NOT get extension of my throwing arm. It should work the same way when throwing a bat.

Why doesn't it work for everyone when hitting? Because the same underlying mechanics to throw a ball correctly don't get duplicated when throwing a bat. I've been doing evaluations for a 16u travel team. Out of the eight girls that I've looked at, seven don't throw overhand correctly. I know girls in 18u that don't throw overhand correctly.

Extension occurs after contact. If extension doesn't occur naturally, then something is seriously wrong further upstream. I would argue that the problem can be traced all the way back to how the back arm loads. A simple concept that I teach the kids is; "What Loads...Unloads".

I don't personally know any hitting instructor or FP coach in my area that understands the concept that the slotting action of the back elbow is actually a loading action, rather than an unloading action. This basic underlying action occurs naturally when we throw overhand, but gets coached out of kids or overlooked entirely in hitting.

On a side note; early wrist roll is due to the hips not clearing properly, which is related to the back arm action.

"....the hips set the swing in motion and lead the way. If they are restricted, if you don't open them wide enough, the wrists will roll prematurely. They won't stay in that good strong position long enough to make proper contact."
--Ted Williams

 

[Wellphyt]

Both of these images are from the same instructional video. The LH image was taken towards the beginning of the video where the player demonstrates how to position the arm to throw. The RH image was taken at the very end of the video where the player puts on her mask....has someone pitch to her....and throws down to 2nd base for real.




The LH image is what is commonly taught. I used to teach it myself. When a player throws like this, it causes the arm to be out of sync with the lower body. The result is a high incidence of shoulder injury. The RH image shows excellent form and is what I've been teaching for the last three years.

The main point being that we have a high profile Team USA player teaching something she doesn't actually do. This same kind of stuff happens with hitting. There are a lot of mistaken ideas that are being parroted around.

If a player learns to throw like the player demonstrates in the LH image; it is very likely they will hit the same way. That's why we start with proper throwing mechanics.

The parents will usually have some concern that the hands will be too far away from the body when they first see their dd throwing a bat with just the top hand....top hand throw drill. This happened to me just last week with the parent of a '97 girl. The dad was very nice about it, but I could tell he was a little worried. At our second session I asked him to come into the cage and stand behind his daughter while I threw front toss. I specifically told him to focus on the pinch between the bicep and forearm of the back arm. He was all smiles....because his dd had a nice bicep to forearm pinch....which is what I promised him would happen if his dd learned to work her back arm correctly....and then added her bottom hand to the bat.

The bottom hand naturally alters the sidearm throwing motion. The sloppy looking back arm action seen when doing the one hand throws....turns into a well connected, short to the ball, tight hand path swing....when the bottom hand is added. The way I like to think of it is that the top hand is what controls the initial "Carving" action seen in good swings. The "Filet" action is where I believe the bottom hand gets more involved, where the forward throw of the barrel to the ball is more of a two handed throw than just a top hand throw.

The "Carve" is the action seen up until the first pause in this clip. Once the hands (more top hand IMO) get the barrel into this position....both hands throw the barrel at the ball...."Filet" action seen after the first pause.

 

[RayR]

The problem with teaching overhand throwing is that people try to break down the steps into still positions....so player in the above post is replicating a position where the ball is up - but at this point in a throw (when the ball is at its highest point) the elbow has already come forward from the upper arm externally rotating - so the dumb L position just builds in a pause point in a normal throw...

Most girls will still throw with the upper arm ERing to lead the actual throw, but by that time their lower body is out of sync....

They are taught to get into the big L position when their front foot is on the ground....instead of landing when the arm is in the lower picture (which is a pass through position)....so you will see of a lot of jumping off the back foot to generate force in the throw that was coached out by adding in the big L pause point....this is why you see the front leg act like a pole vault pole instead of bending and then bracing up....

Watch the throw below - pass through positions....

As far as hitting - same thing....you shouldn't be concerned about still positions....everything is a pass through position....if you going to add in a carve position to a swing - how exactly would you show that to a player? Are you going to have them drop the barrel intentionally?

I see the carve/filet - I know why it happens....it is a flattening move of the hands to get the barrel on plane with the pitch as the barrel is being thrown/turned....it slo mo video it shows up better....but it happens naturally if the hands are trying to throw/turn the barrel from the start of the swing....the hands don't try to throw the barrel late....it happens from the start....there is inertia of the barrel to overcome even as the hands/wrists/forearms are working to put it in motion....all while working to get the barrel on plane....

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The problem with teaching overhand throwing is that people try to break down the steps into still positions....so player in the above post is replicating a position where the ball is up - but at this point in a throw (when the ball is at its highest point) the elbow has already come forward from the upper arm externally rotating - so the dumb L position just builds in a pause point in a normal throw...

Most girls will still throw with the upper arm ERing to lead the actual throw, but by that time their lower body is out of sync....

They are taught to get into the big L position when their front foot is on the ground....instead of landing when the arm is in the lower picture (which is a pass through position)....so you will see of a lot of jumping off the back foot to generate force in the throw that was coached out by adding in the big L pause point....this is why you see the front leg act like a pole vault pole instead of bending and then bracing up....

Watch the throw below - pass through positions....

As far as hitting - same thing....you shouldn't be concerned about still positions....everything is a pass through position....if you going to add in a carve position to a swing - how exactly would you show that to a player? Are you going to have them drop the barrel intentionally?

I see the carve/filet - I know why it happens....it is a flattening move of the hands to get the barrel on plane with the pitch as the barrel is being thrown/turned....it slo mo video it shows up better....but it happens naturally if the hands are trying to throw/turn the barrel from the start of the swing....the hands don't try to throw the barrel late....it happens from the start....there is inertia of the barrel to overcome even as the hands/wrists/forearms are working to put it in motion....all while working to get the barrel on plane....

Bold above ..... This is why Williams at one point spoke of a "level swing" ... and years later corrected himself on the topic. But there was a time when he truly believed and advocated a "level swing" ... and IMO he was after the "fillet action".

There is a school of thought that believes that the seeking of alignment of the barrel is where speed comes from.

 

[Wellphyt]

MTS makes some good points in his last post.

This is not directed at MTS or any one particular individual, but I thought it was widely understood that discussing the details of the swing in a "Technical Hitting Forum" on the internet, is very different than working with a kid on their swing in a batting cage. When I teach hitting, I never talk to the kids about "Carve and Filet", and I don't break the swing down like that when I teach. When the overhand throw is taught correctly; it is one motion with a change of direction within that one motion. The change of direction is what creates the feel of whip.

The first thing we do is warm up throwing overhand. If I see that the player doesn't throw overhand correctly, we switch to a Nerf Football with a Tail, and we work on how to throw overhand correctly. When I see that they are getting the basic idea of the throwing sequence and how the throwing arm and front leg sync up; we move on to top hand throw drills using a small training bat. The top hand throw drills are all done as one motion, just like the overhand throw drills. The benefit of using the throwing model to teach hitting; is so that the kids can learn the swing in one motion rather than in pieces. Teaching the swing in pieces defeats the purpose of using the throwing model to teach hitting.

The main reason I keep mentioning the "Carve and Filet" action here in the "Technical Hitting Forum", is because I don't see many examples of kids on here with a blended "Carve and Filet" action. Most of the swings I see on here involve a two part "Carve and Filet" action; while others just "Filet" and take their hands to the ball as a first move. Neither produce the blended action needed to produce the whip feel we all have when we throw a ball overhand, sidearm or skip a rock.

 

[Wellphyt]

Regarding Williams' thoughts on the level swing; I understand him to be saying that he used to parrot around common ideas just like everyone else. As he got older and began to seriously analyze the swing, he began to realize that the best hitters were not doing the stuff they were parroting around.

His reference to the level or down swing, that was widely parroted back in his day; was in the context of him realizing that the swing was a slight upswing of up to 10 degrees. The slight upswing is further discussed in the context of putting the bat flush online with the ball for a longer impact zone.

 

[RichK]

The benefit of using the throwing model to teach hitting; is so that the kids can learn the swing in one motion rather than in pieces. Teaching the swing in pieces defeats the purpose of using the throwing model to teach hitting.

Absolutely true and very important -- especially when using the "pieces" that have been traditionally used to teach the swing.

I was at a clinic this weekend, 500 high school and college coaches, every demo of and conversation about hitting involved static positions (forward stride, toe touch, heel drop, etc) that don't happen in a real-time swing in the same way and for the same purpose as they do in a step-by-step demo.

Wellphyt, you'll like this: a very well-known D1 coach was demonstrating how to hit a low pitch. She emphasized the need to keep the shoulders level as you go down to get that pitch, and demoed it in slow motion.

I told the coach I was with..she's wrong. You need lateral tilt to get the low pitch. He looked at me like I was crazy, who was I to question this D1 coach?

Two minutes later, the same coach was taking more full-speed swings hitting a low pitch. What do you know, when she swung naturally, versus a "teaching demo," she had a natural lateral tilt and the proper bat path.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Regarding Williams' thoughts on the level swing; I understand him to be saying that he used to parrot around common ideas just like everyone else. As he got older and began to seriously analyze the swing, he began to realize that the best hitters were not doing the stuff they were parroting around.

His reference to the level or down swing, that was widely parroted back in his day; was in the context of him realizing that the swing was a slight upswing of up to 10 degrees. The slight upswing is further discussed in the context of putting the bat flush online with the ball for a longer impact zone.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Absolutely true and very important -- especially when using the "pieces" that have been traditionally used to teach the swing.

I was at a clinic this weekend, 500 high school and college coaches, every demo of and conversation about hitting involved static positions (forward stride, toe touch, heel drop, etc) that don't happen in a real-time swing in the same way and for the same purpose as they do in a step-by-step demo.

Wellphyt, you'll like this: a very well-known D1 coach was demonstrating how to hit a low pitch. She emphasized the need to keep the shoulders level as you go down to get that pitch, and demoed it in slow motion.

I told the coach I was with..she's wrong. You need lateral tilt to get the low pitch. He looked at me like I was crazy, who was I to question this D1 coach?

Two minutes later, the same coach was taking more full-speed swings hitting a low pitch. What do you know, when she swung naturally, versus a "teaching demo," she had a natural lateral tilt and the proper bat path.

Your post made me chuckle.

Anyone violating the Hanson Principle is fair game to being challenged IMO.

 

[RayR]

Let your hands dictate the flow of things....

RichK - the coach in your post was demonstrating positions based on body parts....her normal swing left the hands in charge to move the barrel to the ball....her brain allowed her hands to guide the process and credit to her - she allowed her body to act in support of this as opposed to literally trying to keep the shoulders level....