Umps, how would you deal with this?

[marriard]

Here's the situation. ASA/USA Softball rules. The batter has a 2-1 count. Next pitch, she swings and misses. Thinking it's the third strike, she runs to first. Catcher, reacting to batter-runner, overthrows first and ball lands in outfield. Runner makes it all the way around home due to various bad throws. As she crosses home, ump tells her that was strike two but she doesn't hear or doesn't understand what he's trying to tell her and she goes into the dugout. The next batter gets in the box.

Assuming no runners are on, this is where the umpire makes his real mistake. You know it is only a second strike, so you kill the play ASAP - go out in front of the box and make a loud call so everyone knows what is happening. There is no reason to let the girl run the bases or extra throws when they are not going to matter - no way with no one on that the batter should have been allowed to run all the bases..

If there are runners on - you need to wait until everything is over (either the runners on score or the ball is back in the circle) before killing it because the ball is live, but you are still killing it as soon as you can and doing it loudly. Here the batter is going to be running because of the live ball but the players are meant to know the count and so forth.

In this confusion it is important that you not just tell the girl or the just the coach that it was only strike two, but that you tell EVERYONE. If you loudly announce "That was only strike two" you can bet the girl stays at bat (especially if her parents are in the crowd)

Not sure how the umpire didn't notice her wander off to the dugout either, but I guess in all the confusion it could happen - perhaps it happened when he was telling the coaches the run didn't count or something.

Ump and scorekeeper (that's me) don't realize it's a different batter because both girls have the same helmet, are the same height and same build with similar hair that covers their number. Next two pitches are balls and ump sends the runner to first for a walk. At that point, batter says the count is 2-0 and when I look at the on-deck batter I realize that the prior batter did not finish her at-bat and this is the next girl in the order.

Umps, how would you resolve this situation?

Ugh.. as Comp and MTR state this isn't one that is covered by the rules directly. There MAY be a case play or clarification out there and it will not surprise me when Comp finds it and lets us know. When it comes down to it, I feel as an umpire this is primarily my fault and whatever I decide is probably not going to go down all that well, but it is my job to make a decision and also in general falling on your sword is probably the best way to go. That there have been additional legal pitches thrown makes it even worse. Right or wrong, I probably do what the umpire did - tell both coaches it is on me and since the original batter left because of my original error I need to correct this error in the best way I can, and that the original batter comes back with the correct count and that we are going to kill the additional pitches (not unlike when a runner enters the dugout because of MY error - I am going to put her back on base - though I must say I have only seen this in cases - it has not happened to me in a game (yet)).

I have a feeling if there is a case play it going to say that the pitches have to count and it is a walk and the proper batter/runner is placed on first and I am going to learn something new. But if I made this error in any of the games I did today, I think I would have probably done what your umpire did.

I am actually going to present this to my umpire room locally and see what their thought are.

 

[MTR]

When it comes down to it, I feel as an umpire this is primarily my fault

I don't necessarily agree with this. The umpire informed the coach of the situation. It is the coach's responsibility to insure the proper batter comes to the plate.

 

[marriard]

I don't necessarily agree with this. The umpire informed the coach of the situation. It is the coach's responsibility to insure the proper batter comes to the plate.

I can definitely see this point of view.

I would argue that the extremely poor game management leading up to the situation if not primarily at fault, is at least a significant contributing factor. In this situation the umpire (or umpires) have missed a whole bunch of things happening on the field. At some point the umpire told this girl it was only strike two and she still somehow managed to leave the field of play without them noticing and a whole different batter came to the plate without knowing that the previous batter had just been told she only had 2 strikes or any one else noticing it was the wrong batter. There is a whole confusing situation that just happened, I am sure the crowd is making the whole 'ball being thrown around' noise and at no point did the umpire announce loudly something like " Time, batter that was strike two. Please return to the plate" or even at the end of the play as described "Run does not count, the batter has only two strikes on them" or something similar.

If I had the misfortune of putting myself in this situation and recognized that the wrong batter was in the box before play resumed I am sure saying something. It may not be technically on me, but avoiding as many of these situations as possible certainly is.

 

[Strike2]

If there are runners on - you need to wait until everything is over (either the runners on score or the ball is back in the circle) before killing it because the ball is live, but you are still killing it as soon as you can and doing it loudly. Here the batter is going to be running because of the live ball but the players are meant to know the count and so forth.

Totally agree with getting out into the field and immediately killing that play with no runners on.

However, if there are runners on, and the batter starts running to 1B during her AB, and the subsequent action by the defense on that batter results in other runners advancing, couldn't that produce an interference call on the batter?

Section 33 of the rule supplement talks about how interference can be in the form of "...verbal distraction, visual distraction, or any type of distraction that hinders a fielder in the execution of a play". While the defense should know how many strikes there are, the same should apply to the batter. If a batter can take off during their AB and draw a throw which allows other runners to advance, and then return to the batter's box without penalty, what's to prevent a team from trying it?

 

[MTR]

I can definitely see this point of view.

I would argue that the extremely poor game management leading up to the situation if not primarily at fault, is at least a significant contributing factor. In this situation the umpire (or umpires) have missed a whole bunch of things happening on the field. At some point the umpire told this girl it was only strike two and she still somehow managed to leave the field of play without them noticing and a whole different batter came to the plate without knowing that the previous batter had just been told she only had 2 strikes or any one else noticing it was the wrong batter. There is a whole confusing situation that just happened, I am sure the crowd is making the whole 'ball being thrown around' noise and at no point did the umpire announce loudly something like " Time, batter that was strike two. Please return to the plate" or even at the end of the play as described "Run does not count, the batter has only two strikes on them" or something similar.

If I had the misfortune of putting myself in this situation and recognized that the wrong batter was in the box before play resumed I am sure saying something. It may not be technically on me, but avoiding as many of these situations as possible certainly is.

Never said the umpire shouldn't correct the situation if it was noticed, of course, he should. The umpire informed the coach AND PLAYER of what happened and it is the coach's responsibility to insure that batter returns to the BB to complete her turn at bat.

When the runner broke for first, the ump told the coach it was only strike 2 and that the runner needed to return. He told the batter when she crossed home that it was only strike two.

What more do you want the umpire to do, walk into the dugout and drag her back to the plate?

 

[marriard]

Totally agree with getting out into the field and immediately killing that play with no runners on.

However, if there are runners on, and the batter starts running to 1B during her AB, and the subsequent action by the defense on that batter results in other runners advancing, couldn't that produce an interference call on the batter?

Section 33 of the rule supplement talks about how interference can be in the form of "...verbal distraction, visual distraction, or any type of distraction that hinders a fielder in the execution of a play". While the defense should know how many strikes there are, the same should apply to the batter. If a batter can take off during their AB and draw a throw which allows other runners to advance, and then return to the batter's box without penalty, what's to prevent a team from trying it?

Unless it was clearly intentional probably not. And good luck trying to be sure about it being intentional to call it. It would have to be real obvious or maybe a repeat offender. Even then... tough to be sure enough to make a call.

Yes the players and coaches on both teams are expected to know the count. And if the runners start to advance because the batter is running, they are probably not expecting to advance on that pitch so there is likely no real advantage if it wasn't intentional.

It is no different than when a dropped third strike occurs with no/one outs and first base occupied and the batter runs and the runner at first takes off. The fielding team has to know the batter is out and the runner is in effect trying to steal. And the runner is expected to know the batter is out and if she does try to take the next base she is doing it at her own risk.

 

[marriard]

What more do you want the umpire to do, walk into the dugout and drag her back to the plate?

Well as I stated earlier, he should have announced the whole play nice and loudly in the first place so everyone was aware what was going on. Just telling the batter and coach may be technically enough but it is poor game management especially after a whole bunch of excitement and confusion (some of which unnecessarily happened). I know I like to basically reset everything and have things calm down a bit before moving on after a play that has everyone overly excited and not 100% sure what is going on.

This all could have been avoided if the umpire handled the situation better in the first place. As you know, this can be hard to do when everything is happening all at once but that is the good thing about umpiring softball - you have a break in between plays where you can take your time to get everything right or reset and manage the game and game situation.

In fairness it sounds like the umpire probably got to a decent place finally but he did it the hard way.

 

[corlay]

why wouldn't this be treated as any other "batting out of order play"?

If looked at it that way, if the 2nd batter made it on base,
and then a legal pitch had been thrown to the next batter,
then all plays stand and no appeal is possible.

If the mistake is realized *before* the batter reaches base or is out,
then the original batter should be placed back in the box to assume the current ball/strike count and complete the at-bat.
(including the 2 legal pitches thrown to the wrong batter)

if the mistake is realized *after* the batter reaches base, but *before* a legal pitch is thrown to the next batter,
then that penalty to the batting team is clearly outline in the rulebook.

last question: did the scorekeepers remember to negate the scoring run, by the batter rounding the basepaths on 2-strikes? lol

 

[MTR]

why wouldn't this be treated as any other "batting out of order play"?

If looked at it that way, if the 2nd batter made it on base,
and then a legal pitch had been thrown to the next batter,
then all plays stand and no appeal is possible.

If the mistake is realized *before* the batter reaches base or is out,
then the original batter should be placed back in the box to assume the current ball/strike count and complete the at-bat.
(including the 2 legal pitches thrown to the wrong batter)

if the mistake is realized *after* the batter reaches base, but *before* a legal pitch is thrown to the next batter,
then that penalty to the batting team is clearly outline in the rulebook.

last question: did the scorekeepers remember to negate the scoring run, by the batter rounding the basepaths on 2-strikes? lol

This is an appeal that must be made by the defense prior to the offense realizing the problem and making a correction

 

[MTR]

Well as I stated earlier, he should have announced the whole play nice and loudly in the first place so everyone was aware what was going on. Just telling the batter and coach may be technically enough but it is poor game management especially after a whole bunch of excitement and confusion (some of which unnecessarily happened). I know I like to basically reset everything and have things calm down a bit before moving on after a play that has everyone overly excited and not 100% sure what is going on.

No, the umpire is not the game announcer. He did exactly what he was supposed to do.

This all could have been avoided if the umpire handled the situation better in the first place. As you know, this can be hard to do when everything is happening all at once but that is the good thing about umpiring softball - you have a break in between plays where you can take your time to get everything right or reset and manage the game and game situation.

In fairness it sounds like the umpire probably got to a decent place finally but he did it the hard way.

Considering your responses, it makes me think it is about time you took off your daddy/coach hat if you are going to speak as an umpire.