Tulsa area I/R coach

[Orthodoc]

Full disclosure: I am a board certified, fellowship trained, hand and upper extremity (shoulder, elbow, wrist, and hand) surgeon with 2 pitchers and one catcher at home. I have done hundreds, if not thousands, of surgeries and dozens of them on college athletes. Additionally, I am an I/R believer because it makes sense anatomically and physiologically. I have also done a ton of clinical research into the windmill pitch and am doing some preliminary work on a new research project to build on prior research, specifically I want to isolate what forearm muscle is most utilized during the release phase. A paper was submitted about 2 years ago at the ASSH (American Society for Surgery of the Hand) meeting using an EMG (transdermal) at the release phase of the pitch, and the winner was the FCU (Flexor Carpi Ulnaris) muscle.

What wasn't covered in the paper is what changes occur if you pitch with different mechanics, specifically I/R vs HE, or even covering the technique of the pitchers in the study. I live in a small area, and the nearest fastpitch hot spot is Tulsa, and I was hoping that someone could direct me to a coach that understands and teaches the I/R mechanics, even if they call it something different. I have plenty of H/E coaches in my area. Can someone direct me to a pitching coach in the Tulsa area that understands the mechanics?

Once I get an opportunity for a decent sample size (I'd like 20 in each group), I will begin the IRB process to get it rolling. I am planning slow motion camera to confirm the mechanics and using a rev fire and stalker 2 radar gun to get speed and spin data, as well as, a transdermal EMG to record the amount of response from the forearm muscles. I think that it will be very interesting to see if we can see spin and velocity increases with less effort from the forearm musculature. Anyway, if someone could point me in the right direction that would be very helpful.

Thanks!

 

[Ken B]

Loving this!!! I was going to suggest that the forearm muscle that does the most work is the thumb muscles as they release the ball! I'm very much looking forward to reading future posts and eventually your final report.

Welcome to DFP!


Ken

 

[Ken B]

Not a technical kinda guy by any means, but I'd like to throw something out there: What part of the bullwhip is responsible for providing the most power to get the tip moving faster than the speed of sound?

Something else to try: Have a subject throw 10 pitches and determine the average speed of the set. Then give the pitcher a wrist brace to wear for another 10 pitches. Compare the speeds.

 

[Ken B]

I think that it will be very interesting to see if we can see spin and velocity increases with less effort from the forearm musculature.

Very much looking forward to the results!

 

[javasource]

Orthodoc,

I think your paper sounds interesting.

Couple thoughts... At a game yesterday I heard an opponents coach (who works with the kid on pitching) tell her to "get behind the ball and finish at the shoulder". Based on the coaches physical demonstration, I interpret this as "get your bicep forward, lead with the hand and sharply bring the throwing hand to the throwing shoulder via elbow flexion." Anyway... the kid emphatically shook her head at the instruction... only to lead with the elbow, internally rotate the humerus, and pronate the forearm (finished with hand to the target, palm down). She pitched fairly well... but NOTHING like the instruction she received. This was HS varsity ball.

A week ago... I was at a JV game. Different team... younger kids... but the EXACT same instruction was given by a local PC... only her student was actually attempting the movements... hand on top, hand leading, bicep prematurely I/R'd, finished with extreme flexion of the elbow to the throwing shoulder. After 4 or 5 consecutive walks, they chalked up her experience on the plate as inexperience... and the starting pitcher relieved her.

Point being... like the first girl that competes at an older/higher level... some form of I/R is going to happen or they won't be pitching... whereas in lesser competition... you can actually see the HE style being performed. I think your study will need to validate the movements a pitcher is ACTUALLY performing... not just the instruction she is receiving. As such, the older you get in your sample pool... the more difficult this will become. I've filmed 100's of pitchers over the years... and even though 90% of them receive some form of HE instruction, only the younger ones actually throw this way... and maybe half of them actually HE.

So... what is HE to you in this study? What articulations are you looking for... and are you validating that the pitcher is actually performing them? If so... the emg data (IMO) will be off the charts in comparison. I might recommend that you monitor the stress at the elbow joint, too... if your study permits.

I don't think you'll find the consistency in your data if you perform the study based solely on instruction... you'll definitely want to validate against performed motion.

 

[Des]

Andrea Vaughn head coach at Rogers State University

 

[Rocketech1]

I will second what Java said. Most HE pitchers are performing some Internal Rotation of the forearm and hand. The way I look at it is most pitchers are on a continuum between pure HE and pure I/R and unless you account for these variables, the results of your study may be incomplete or inconclusive. For example, DDs first PC taught hello elbow mechanics but DD never could get it right (thank god!) and internal rotation seemed more natural to her but even today she doesn't get full palm to the sky at 9:00 (more like 3rd base). How would your study account for this? And how would you define a "fastball", 12/6 spin, bullet spin, etc..

 

[Orthodoc]

Right, I understand what you are saying. It would be like the videos where they instruct to get behind and wave it up, but they still show some I/R mechanics. i will be addressing that in my inclusion/exclusion criteria and will use slow motion video to evaluate this. Even higher level pitchers throw with the elbow facing the catcher and the hand supinated near the throwing shoulder vs. leading with the elbow forarm pronation mechanic. What happens before that IS a very critical part of the study. Are the mechanics the same prior to the post release phase? If so, how does that change the forearm muscle responses compared to traditional I/R release? If not, how does that differ from a classic I/R pitch? Do they truly "prematurely" internally rotate and "get behind the ball"? If so, I have to widen my cohort and adjust my inclusion exclusion criteria.

However, when someone throws their version of a "fastball" (criteria being the pitch they throw the hardest) those are the mechanics that I am interested in, unless it is a non-drop movement pitch. Once you get a set of cohorts then you can check the musculature. My statistician will review the data sets and see if the results are statistically significant if they are, then we are on to something.

From there, we can expand our data sets to include different pitches, ect. We are starting a medical school here so I plan on having several studies based on the windmill pitch. One discovery will lead to the next question. Measuring joint reaction forces across the elbow is possible. What is your theory there? I would think that the valgus load of an I/R pitch would be higher than the "behind the ball" hello elbow style, unless the mechanics are the same until after release, but even then, I'm more interested what happens after. I love the suggestions! I figured this thread would be dead.

 

[Orthodoc]

Something else to try: Have a subject throw 10 pitches and determine the average speed of the set. Then give the pitcher a wrist brace to wear for another 10 pitches. Compare the speeds.

And do that with 30 different pitchers and see if change in spin and speed is statistically significant. That is a chip shot study that isolates the importance of the wrist. I like it.

 

[slingnit]

I would try contacting Jeff Filali wit Tulsa Elite. He I s on Facebook and Twitter, should be easy to contact him.