The Finer Points of IR

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May 15, 2008
1,943
113
Cape Cod Mass.
After looking at the video posted by Ade's Dad I decided that it's a good time to look closer at the finer points of internal rotation (IR) of the arm and how it relates to the quality of a particular fastpitch motion.

There are basically two qualities or attributes to the IR part of the motion that vary considerably from pitcher to pitcher, they are timing and elbow angle. IR by itself is not a very dynamic action in terms of adding velocity to a pitched ball. You can see this for yourself by simply leaning over in your chair and letting your throwing arm hang straight down, rotate your palm/hand/arm clockwise and counter clockwise, there's not much to it.

How a pitcher times the IR part of her motion will determine how much speed she will gain from it. I would say that 98% of the 300+ pitchers that I have on video have some amount of IR in their motion. The vast majority of these pitchers are in a position like Ade in frame 3 of the 4 posted by her dad. They have their hand on the side of the ball and the elbow is leading, to some degree anyway. As they move down from this 9 o'clock position most pitchers will start their internal rotation, by the time they get to about 7 o'clock they will have completed it and be pushing the ball to release. They have released it early, not maximized the 'whip' part of their motion and lost velocity.

The second variable in the internal rotation part of the motion involves the amount of elbow bend or angle. The more angle or bend a pitcher has in her elbow the more she can take advantage of IR to add velocity to the ball. Some pitchers, like Jenny Finch and Sarah Pauly, with long arms do not have a lot of elbow bend, they rely more on their arm circle for velocity (they still have great timing). Other pitchers like Ueno employ a significant amount of elbow bend to add speed. Most of the college pitchers that I have on tape have a significant amount of arm bend, far more than you would think unless you see it in high speed slo-mo. I have some girls on tape that look basically like a baseball submarine pitcher, they disguise what is possibly an illegal motion with a windmill start and heavy body lean to the throwing arm side so that the release still takes place under the shoulder.

How a pitcher times her IR release and how much elbow bend she employs determines how much velocity she can add to the ball with the internal rotation part of the pitching motion.

To Ade's Dad, I would say that if your daughter wants to take it to the next level she needs more elbow bend and she needs to hold that release longer, this is what will allow her to 'crack the whip' and get maximum velocity on her fastball.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,399
63
Northeast Ohio
Very interesting Armwhip. Good post for discussion for those interested in trying to back chain what creates velocity
To Ade's Dad, I would say that if your daughter wants to take it to the next level she needs more elbow bend and she needs to hold that release longer, this is what will allow her to 'crack the whip' and get maximum velocity on her fastball.
I agree with this observation regarding Ade. I think many of the elements that create a powerful overhand throw related to elbow bend and internal rotation apply to the underhand throw as well.
 
Apr 13, 2011
114
0
" I have some girls on tape that look basically like a baseball submarine pitcher, they disguise what is possibly an illegal motion"

Could you please elaborate on this? What movement defines an illegal submarine pitch and how is this distinguished from an IR movement?

Thanks
 
May 15, 2008
1,943
113
Cape Cod Mass.
JD, I doubt that you would ever see it called because the 'hand is quicker than the eye' so it is not readily visible without slo-mo video. ASA rules state that a legal delivery has 'the wrist not further from the body than the elbow' and with many pitchers this is not the case. I suppose that you could make the case that any IR delivery is illegal because of the elbow bend. IR is pointless or almost completely negated without elbow bend. It is the elbow bend that supplies leverage or the mechanical advantage that adds velocity as the arm is rotated. In the extreme case that I am referring to the pitcher has an arm bend that is close to 90 degrees, she disguises it by leaning way over to her throwing arm side. It's very creative and once again points to the body's unique ability to instinctively or intuitively construct a solution to achieve the desired goal of throwing the ball hard. No pitching instructor is going to tell someone to throw a ball like this.
 
Feb 17, 2011
201
16
" I have some girls on tape that look basically like a baseball submarine pitcher, they disguise what is possibly an illegal motion"

Could you please elaborate on this? What movement defines an illegal submarine pitch and how is this distinguished from an IR movement?

Thanks

Time and time again the rule books of all major associations describe a legal pitch as being released below the waist with the hand not outside the elbow and as anyone can plainly see this is not being done with any girl who has even a slight degree of IR in her delivery. I showed my dd a gif on the computer of Ueno when we were discussing increasing IR at a pitching lesson. She said well I dont do that at all....Do I? PC showed her film of herself pitching and after we all stopped laughing at the strain on her face she could indeed see that her arm from the elbow down was in fact doing quite a bit of IR and that her hand was a good bit outside of her elbow as it dug into her ribcage. This is just as example of how what is said to pitchers and hitters and what they actually are doing are quite often two totally different things as revealed by slowmotion cameras. The camera I have to tape her with will go to 2000 fps and like some on here have said that is too much detail... but it is amazing to watch each of the muscles fire in order.
 

halskinner

Banned
May 7, 2008
2,637
0
When the rulebooks say the arm must be on the straight up and down plane of the body, that is in place to try and stop 'side-arm' throwing motions. The associations realize that is an unsafe motion.

However, to try and pitch without at least a slight bend in the elbow means an elbow that is locked and an arm that is straingt. This places tremendous stress on the shoulder complex and is also an unsafe motion.

sneaky softball pitching.com
 
Jul 26, 2010
3,553
0
Time and time again the rule books of all major associations describe a legal pitch as being released below the waist with the hand not outside the elbow and as anyone can plainly see this is not being done with any girl who has even a slight degree of IR in her delivery. I showed my dd a gif on the computer of Ueno when we were discussing increasing IR at a pitching lesson. She said well I dont do that at all....Do I? PC showed her film of herself pitching and after we all stopped laughing at the strain on her face she could indeed see that her arm from the elbow down was in fact doing quite a bit of IR and that her hand was a good bit outside of her elbow as it dug into her ribcage. This is just as example of how what is said to pitchers and hitters and what they actually are doing are quite often two totally different things as revealed by slowmotion cameras. The camera I have to tape her with will go to 2000 fps and like some on here have said that is too much detail... but it is amazing to watch each of the muscles fire in order.


If you pay attention to female anatomy, it's impossible for the arm to be "straight down" without the hand canted away from the elbow. They would have to deliberately have a "sailor elbow" posture to be within the letter of the rule.

-W
 
Jun 24, 2009
310
0
After looking at the video posted by Ade's Dad I decided that it's a good time to look closer at the finer points of internal rotation (IR) of the arm and how it relates to the quality of a particular fastpitch motion.

There are basically two qualities or attributes to the IR part of the motion that vary considerably from pitcher to pitcher, they are timing and elbow angle. IR by itself is not a very dynamic action in terms of adding velocity to a pitched ball. You can see this for yourself by simply leaning over in your chair and letting your throwing arm hang straight down, rotate your palm/hand/arm clockwise and counter clockwise, there's not much to it.

How a pitcher times the IR part of her motion will determine how much speed she will gain from it. I would say that 98% of the 300+ pitchers that I have on video have some amount of IR in their motion. The vast majority of these pitchers are in a position like Ade in frame 3 of the 4 posted by her dad. They have their hand on the side of the ball and the elbow is leading, to some degree anyway. As they move down from this 9 o'clock position most pitchers will start their internal rotation, by the time they get to about 7 o'clock they will have completed it and be pushing the ball to release. They have released it early, not maximized the 'whip' part of their motion and lost velocity.

The second variable in the internal rotation part of the motion involves the amount of elbow bend or angle. The more angle or bend a pitcher has in her elbow the more she can take advantage of IR to add velocity to the ball. Some pitchers, like Jenny Finch and Sarah Pauly, with long arms do not have a lot of elbow bend, they rely more on their arm circle for velocity (they still have great timing). Other pitchers like Ueno employ a significant amount of elbow bend to add speed. Most of the college pitchers that I have on tape have a significant amount of arm bend, far more than you would think unless you see it in high speed slo-mo. I have some girls on tape that look basically like a baseball submarine pitcher, they disguise what is possibly an illegal motion with a windmill start and heavy body lean to the throwing arm side so that the release still takes place under the shoulder.

How a pitcher times her IR release and how much elbow bend she employs determines how much velocity she can add to the ball with the internal rotation part of the pitching motion.

To Ade's Dad, I would say that if your daughter wants to take it to the next level she needs more elbow bend and she needs to hold that release longer, this is what will allow her to 'crack the whip' and get maximum velocity on her fastball.
Yes I agree.We do work on IR on occasion.When she throws with extreme IR very much she says it makes her fingers tingle so I limit how much we do that.She is young.Turned 13 only 2 months ago.She sometimes does snaps like Boardmember recommends
.Thanks for starting this thread I think it will be a good one.
 

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