The call if the umpire can't see it...

[sluggers]

Had a strange situation tonight. The umps did get it right, but I was wondering how the pros would handle it.

The field had a weird angle with the dugout, so that foul territory extended behind part of the the dugout to create a nook. I attached a rough sketch of the field layout

Two umpires, and there was a runner at 1B, so the field ump was 1/2 between 1st and 2nd.

Batter pops up in foul territory. 1B catches with her back to the field, so the field ump can't see the catch. Due to the weird field configuration, the plate umpire can't see the catch either. Both umpires see 1B run from the nook with the ball in her glove. How should an umpire handle this situation?

I was standing on the other side of the fence perhaps 2 feet from the play, with a completely unobstructed view of the play. 1B trapped the ball against the fence. But, of course, neither ump could see the trap.

The plate ump signaled out, but then went out to talk to the field ump. The field ump said he didn't see it, but the plate ump changed the call...I think because of (1) the groans from the fans and (2) the sheepish look on 1B's face.

But, what should have happened? What mechanics should be involved?
.

 

[mmeece]

I'll be interested to hear what those more experienced umpires have to say, but my gut instinct is that you can't call an out that no one saw.

 

[bmakj]

I would suggest that they need a dead ball line, from corner of dugout to fence, on angle to have the line if extended cross HP. have even had umpires tell coaches that this line exists, even if not marked, in similar weird dugout/fence scenarios.

 

[Greatdaytobeawildcat]

I would suggest that they need a dead ball line, from corner of dugout to fence, on angle to have the line if extended cross HP. have even had umpires tell coaches that this line exists, even if not marked, in similar weird dugout/fence scenarios.

Agreed. Last 2 fields I did both had this particular quirk and both had dead ball lines to fix it.

 

[tim_s]

we have a similar quirk.......had a dead ball line......two games ago, home plate umpire said she caught the ball and then carried it over the line........she was WAYYY over, but he forgot about the line and then made the call and didn't want to backtrack; he also did not want to consult his partner

this was not his only issue on the day haha


next day coach installed a temp snow fence on top of the white line haha

 

[bmakj]

we have a similar quirk.......had a dead ball line......two games ago, home plate umpire said she caught the ball and then carried it over the line........she was WAYYY over, but he forgot about the line and then made the call and didn't want to backtrack; he also did not want to consult his partner

this was not his only issue on the day haha


next day coach installed a temp snow fence on top of the white line haha

white line should be sufficient, I do not like snow/temporary fences, safety issue in my mind. And on the field I described, the entrance to the field was in the dead ball area, and players need to cross the line to get from dugout to field.

 

[tim_s]

snow fence is one of the plastic ones, same as the outfield......and i think the distance is short enough he only needed one stake, maybe none........white line SHOULD be sufficient, until they haven't cut the grass yet this week, the field ump is over behind SS, the afternoon sun is in the plate umps eyes, and he forgets to look for the line until it is pointed out to him, even though ground rules were gone over lol

 

[marriard]

You would try to cover this in pre-game (i..e what we should do if something happens in that area if live; need to be aware PU might not have a view so we need both eyes on it); it should also be covered at the plate meeting ("Coach take us around the field" + "The area over there is live/dead" + whatever else I want covered (trees hanging over, weird HR fences, etc, etc)

To be truthful, until you have seen it once, you can be caught by it like the above. Once it happens to you once, it NEVER happens again because you will cover it pre-game/plate meeting as above.

Couple of examples that happened to me that will NEVER happen again at these fields or any field with similar issues.:

We got caught out by a foul ball net that hung considerably over the field including the plate. Ball got fouled straight up, hit the net, gets caught by the catcher. Partner is PU and calls an out. I TOTALLY wasn't looking for this and totally missed it. Everytime I go to that field now we pre-game that.

Another - dugout has a 2-3" lip in the opening. If it hits that, it should be in play as the ball hasn't entered the dead ball area. It hadn't happened ever in many years of coaching and umpring at that field. Happened last season. Now that is covered in the plate meeting when I umpire there.

Added: What happens when you get caught out. You do your best and be live with the consequences. Stay calm, make the best call you can based on the info you have, explain your call to the coaches who are probably not happy; let them vent if needed, and at some point, you say "Coach, I have made my decision. Back to the dugout, and lets play"

 

[jackfrost]

Dead ball line in that area could mean every overthrow becomes a base award. I rather pre game the situation and one of the umps bust over there. But should never reverse call if did not see it.

 

[eddieq]

I'm not going to "guess an out" but I'm also going to get out from behind the plate in that situation to get the best angle on it in that situation.