Had little league game 13-14 with temp fence up and gap in foul territory. Runner on 1st no outs. Batter rips fair ball down 3rd base line. Ball goes foul and thru gap. All pregame meeting in TB umps tell me to have fielder throw hands up and dbl is given if fielder chases ball then it stays live and everyone proceeds at own risk. In this game the fielder went well beyond fence and as she was reaching to pick ball up she evidently remembered to throw her hands up. Ump called time awareded batter second and made the other runner come back to 3rd. I spoke to ump between innings and he said that was ground rule double. I asked if she was beyond fence when she threw hands up and he agreeded that she was and said it was still grd rule dbl. I then asked if she had chased it to 270 ft sign then and decided to throw her hands up would he still rule the same. I saw the wheels turning and he said he would chk with the league. I think/thought once she went beyond fence then it would stay live ball.
temp fence gap and batted ball
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That's a dumb ground rule - any fair batted ball that bounces over, rolls under or through a fence should be a ground rule double regardless of what the fielder does. IME, ground rules that are conditional on the fielder are for when the ball is entangled in a temp fence or concealed by plants (e.g. ivy or shrubbery).
Maybe this is where the umpire was confused...
First, as noted above, this is a two base award in any league, baseball or softball, from little league up through the major leagues.
If the umpire sees that the ball has left the live ball area, and is sure of that, then he should kill the play and award the two bases no matter what the fielder does. Raising hands means nothing with respect to the actual rule. All it does is relay to the umpire that the fielder thinks the ball has become unplayable. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. That is a determination that the umpire has to make for himself.
If the fielder reaches down and grabs the ball BEFORE the umpire has a chance to make that determination, then by default the ball is still live and the play continues.
You can't have a ground rule that supersedes a playing rule. Once the ball is beyond the fence and touches a dead ball area, it's dead by rule. If it was a batted ball, that's two bases for all runners, determined from the base held at the time of the pitch. Nothing can change that.
The right call was made, even if the description you got at the plate conference was a little bit off.
First, as noted above, this is a two base award in any league, baseball or softball, from little league up through the major leagues.
If the umpire sees that the ball has left the live ball area, and is sure of that, then he should kill the play and award the two bases no matter what the fielder does. Raising hands means nothing with respect to the actual rule. All it does is relay to the umpire that the fielder thinks the ball has become unplayable. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. That is a determination that the umpire has to make for himself.
If the fielder reaches down and grabs the ball BEFORE the umpire has a chance to make that determination, then by default the ball is still live and the play continues.
You can't have a ground rule that supersedes a playing rule. Once the ball is beyond the fence and touches a dead ball area, it's dead by rule. If it was a batted ball, that's two bases for all runners, determined from the base held at the time of the pitch. Nothing can change that.
The right call was made, even if the description you got at the plate conference was a little bit off.
I don't. I leave it up to the coaches to coach their own players on how to handle balls going out of play.
I've seen this misinterpreted so many different ways that it's really best to just leave it alone. Lots of people think that the fielder throwing up their hands means that the ball is dead and the play is over. I've also had people who think that if the fielder doesn't throw up their hands, then the ball automatically stays live. Neither is true and either can cause a lot of confusion in a game.
Why do umpires continue to give this speech? Well, it's not something that's recommended in umpire training or umpire manuals. It's just one of those things that some umpires seem to pick up from seeing other umpires do it and it propogates from there. I think that for a lot of guys giving that speech makes them feel more "officious", like they have some special grasp of the rules or secret inside knowledge to share with the world.
Last weekend, I was working on a field that had a temporary fence with a small gap in it. While covering the ground rules before the game, I mentioned the gap to the coaches. Then, the coaches go off on some long spiel about fielders throwing up hands, awarding bases, reaching through the fence etc, ect...And you could tell that they were quite proud that they had this special knowledge and could share it with all!
Here's a portion of an article I had published...
How many of you who have encountered similar field conditions have either stated yourself or heard another umpire say during ground rules, “If the ball goes out of play, put your hands up; but if you go in after the ball, the ball is live and the runners can keep running?” Most umpires say this probably because they heard another umpire say it and it sounded good. The problem is that it is in contradiction to the rules book, and is, thus, wrong!
Consider play #1: R1, the team’s fastest runner, is the winning run on first base. B1 hits the ball to the outfield, and it appears to get lodged in the fence. F9 raises her hands, followed by the umpires raising their hands. Seeing the outfielder and umpires raise their hands, the base coaches hold R1 at third base and B1 at second base. The base umpire then goes out to the fence and picks the ball up with no problem. It turns out, the ball was never out of play. Now what do you do? The outfielder thought the ball was out of play, but it wasn’t. The umpires subsequently have called a dead ball. Perhaps F9 raised her hands because she knew that R1 would score the winning run and she had no chance of throwing R1 out at the plate. Now what do you do?
Consider play #2: In the bottom of the seventh inning, R2, the team’s slowest runner, is the tying run on second base with two outs. The defensive coach is screaming to her players, “The runner on second can’t score. If she scores, we lose.” B1 hits the ball to the outfield, and it appears to get lodged in the fence. This time, the ball is truly lodged in the fence. Knowing that the game is in her hands, F9 pries the ball out from under the fence, and in the process cuts herself on the fence. Then, F9 throws out R2 by an eyelash at the plate. The offensive team, who just lost, is going to argue that the ball was out of play and the umpires should have declared a ground rule double; thus, the game would be tied and the winning runner would be on second base. The defensive team is going to argue, “No, the umpire said in ground rules ‘If you go in after the ball, the ball is live and the runners can keep running?” Now what do you do?
How many of you who have encountered similar field conditions have either stated yourself or heard another umpire say during ground rules, “If the ball goes out of play, put your hands up; but if you go in after the ball, the ball is live and the runners can keep running?” Most umpires say this probably because they heard another umpire say it and it sounded good. The problem is that it is in contradiction to the rules book, and is, thus, wrong!
Consider play #1: R1, the team’s fastest runner, is the winning run on first base. B1 hits the ball to the outfield, and it appears to get lodged in the fence. F9 raises her hands, followed by the umpires raising their hands. Seeing the outfielder and umpires raise their hands, the base coaches hold R1 at third base and B1 at second base. The base umpire then goes out to the fence and picks the ball up with no problem. It turns out, the ball was never out of play. Now what do you do? The outfielder thought the ball was out of play, but it wasn’t. The umpires subsequently have called a dead ball. Perhaps F9 raised her hands because she knew that R1 would score the winning run and she had no chance of throwing R1 out at the plate. Now what do you do?
Consider play #2: In the bottom of the seventh inning, R2, the team’s slowest runner, is the tying run on second base with two outs. The defensive coach is screaming to her players, “The runner on second can’t score. If she scores, we lose.” B1 hits the ball to the outfield, and it appears to get lodged in the fence. This time, the ball is truly lodged in the fence. Knowing that the game is in her hands, F9 pries the ball out from under the fence, and in the process cuts herself on the fence. Then, F9 throws out R2 by an eyelash at the plate. The offensive team, who just lost, is going to argue that the ball was out of play and the umpires should have declared a ground rule double; thus, the game would be tied and the winning runner would be on second base. The defensive team is going to argue, “No, the umpire said in ground rules ‘If you go in after the ball, the ball is live and the runners can keep running?” Now what do you do?
Bretman, Comp, So Cal - I do appreciate all you explanations in these forums-- I coach a Travel ball team and do take the time to review my rule book every week prior to our tournaments - valuable in game advantage to our girls....
I did have a situation last week with a temp fence gap that I'm having trouble figuring out which rule to apply. R1 on 1B, fair batted ball down third base, deflects off P7 glove and past that temp fence gap into dead ball territory. R1 was between 2B and 3B when deflection happened. Ground rule double wiht R1 at 3B or 2 bases from the point the ball goes into dead ball territory? Ump ruled ground rule double. I agrued two bases from point ball went into dead ball territory - should not matter that the dead ball territory was behind the fence should it?
I did have a situation last week with a temp fence gap that I'm having trouble figuring out which rule to apply. R1 on 1B, fair batted ball down third base, deflects off P7 glove and past that temp fence gap into dead ball territory. R1 was between 2B and 3B when deflection happened. Ground rule double wiht R1 at 3B or 2 bases from the point the ball goes into dead ball territory? Ump ruled ground rule double. I agrued two bases from point ball went into dead ball territory - should not matter that the dead ball territory was behind the fence should it?
There aren't any base awards that are based on "the time the ball went into dead ball teritory". Base awards are determined from either the base held at the time of the pitch, or the runner's position at the time of a throw.
Two-base awards for a fair batted ball going out of play (commonly refered to as a "ground rule double") are always determined from the time of pitch. R1 gets third, no matter where she was when the ball actually entered a dead ball area.
There is a way this runner could have been awared home, but apparently the umpire didn't judge it that way. The ground rule double ruling assumes that the ball had enough momentum off the bat to go out of play under its own power. That is, it just happened to deflect off the fielder. The fielder did nothing that added to the ball's momentum.
If the fielder ADDED momentum to the ball, giving it the force to go out of play when it would not have otherwise, then the two-base award could be made from the point where the ball was touched by the fielder. An example would be a ball that rolled to almost a stop on the field, then was kicked, bobbled, or misplayed by the fielder and knocked out of play. Here, the fielder added momentum to the ball, enough momentum for it to leave the field. This would be treated the same as a ball thrown out of play- two bases from the time of the "throw" (or kick/bobble/misplay).
Two-base awards for a fair batted ball going out of play (commonly refered to as a "ground rule double") are always determined from the time of pitch. R1 gets third, no matter where she was when the ball actually entered a dead ball area.
There is a way this runner could have been awared home, but apparently the umpire didn't judge it that way. The ground rule double ruling assumes that the ball had enough momentum off the bat to go out of play under its own power. That is, it just happened to deflect off the fielder. The fielder did nothing that added to the ball's momentum.
If the fielder ADDED momentum to the ball, giving it the force to go out of play when it would not have otherwise, then the two-base award could be made from the point where the ball was touched by the fielder. An example would be a ball that rolled to almost a stop on the field, then was kicked, bobbled, or misplayed by the fielder and knocked out of play. Here, the fielder added momentum to the ball, enough momentum for it to leave the field. This would be treated the same as a ball thrown out of play- two bases from the time of the "throw" (or kick/bobble/misplay).
There aren't any base awards that are based on "the time the ball went into dead ball territory". Base awards are determined from either the base held at the time of the pitch, or the runner's position at the time of a throw.
Bretman - not that it is applicable in my example b/c the fielder did not have possession of the ball, but to your comment above, how do we interpret Rule 8.G Exception 1 - When a fielder loses possession of the ball, and the ball leaves live ball territory or becomes blocked. EFFECT: Each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the tie the ball entered the dead ball area or became blocked?
Bretman - not that it is applicable in my example b/c the fielder did not have possession of the ball, but to your comment above, how do we interpret Rule 8.G Exception 1 - When a fielder loses possession of the ball, and the ball leaves live ball territory or becomes blocked. EFFECT: Each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the tie the ball entered the dead ball area or became blocked?
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