Subtleties in Hip Movement

[chrispots]

A while back, I took recommendations from you folks on training materials to purchase for my league. I've made all my purchases and have watched\read through each of them 2-3x's. All really great stuff and I cannot thank you all enough for your recommendations.

After watching them, there appears to be 3 distinct hip movement patterns that are promoted (these are my words not theirs):

1. Linear press forward into slightly raised front hip, hips rotate slightly to the ball; rotate full through the ball

2. Lateral move forward with hip rotation initiated on toe touch\foot plant

3. Hip rotation only triggered by front heel down\rear heel up exchange. Little to no forward lateral movement

My examples of these 3 patterns:
#1 Would get flack around here for a variety of reasons (although I still find value in the DVDs). I cannot find a direct example of this pattern in a MLB game. This teacher does have direct MLB experience though and has MLB players in his vids.

Trout\Bautista\Cano as examples of #2. I've seen clips of Miggy doing either #2 or #3. #3 for sure when he doesn't stride.

#3 I would use Ted Williams\Pujols\George Brett as examples.

In these clips of Miggy and Pujols, there is far greater lateral movement before the hips rotate from Miggy v. Pujols
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqoRjU0ZXTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

You can also see examples of this in the model swing thread too.

My questions are this based my\this observation: In the elite pattern, #2 or #3 are the most prevalent.

1. Is one better than the other? Why? Is there a bio-mechanical superiority to one or the other? I'd love a geeky anatomical explanation for this!
2. Is hip rotation unto itself irrelevant in the swing? Is it relevant only in it's relation to hand and\or barrel position?
3. In the #2 pattern, one teacher promotes a more balanced weight distribution (i.e. 50/50) at foot plant while another promotes most of the weight to the front side. Again, is there a mechanical advantage to one or the other?
4. Am I completely off base here? Am I looking at these incorrectly?

Here to learn...

CP

 

[straightleg]

What books/dvd's/training material did you study to come up with your conclusions. Just curious


SL

 

[chrispots]

Yeager, Tewks, Parker and Englishbey

 

[chrispots]

Hmmm...my own thread...woohoo!

Wait...we can get 14 pages of tweaks for an 8U swing but no insight into this? You KNOW Keyshawn Johnson is sayin' "C'mon Man!"

See Page 67 of the Model Swings thread: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/2785-model-swings-67.html#post202803

If you look at posts #661 and #663 this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about...To my novice eye, there are significant differences in Miggy's hips\pelvis movement. #661 is an example of #2 "Lateral move forward with hip rotation initiated on toe touch\foot plant."

#663 is an example of #3 "Hip rotation only triggered by front heel down\rear heel up exchange. Little to no forward lateral movement"

Does a picture help explain why I am raising these questions?

I cannot possibly be the only one who is curious about this...CP

 

[softballphreak]

Hmmm...my own thread...woohoo!

Wait...we can get 14 pages of tweaks for an 8U swing but no insight into this? You KNOW Keyshawn Johnson is sayin' "C'mon Man!"

See Page 67 of the Model Swings thread: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softball-hitting-technical/2785-model-swings-67.html#post202803

If you look at posts #661 and #663 this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about...To my novice eye, there are significant differences in Miggy's hips\pelvis movement. #661 is an example of #2 "Lateral move forward with hip rotation initiated on toe touch\foot plant."

#663 is an example of #3 "Hip rotation only triggered by front heel down\rear heel up exchange. Little to no forward lateral movement"

Does a picture help explain why I am raising these questions?

I cannot possibly be the only one who is curious about this...CP

Not sure this is the kind of answer you're looking for but at least it may spark some conversation. In the #661 clip Cabrera is doing what I call a hover stride when I try to teach it. I believe it allows the batter greater range in timing the pitch. For example, if the ball arrives sooner than expected the batter can get the foot down sooner without much effect on shift. On the other hand if the pitch is slower the batter can hover longer.

#663 I think the batter has to be spot on with the timing. I wonder if Cabrera has different approaches to various pitchers. Or maybe these are different periods of time.

 

[tjintx]

A while back, I took recommendations from you folks on training materials to purchase for my league. I've made all my purchases and have watched\read through each of them 2-3x's. All really great stuff and I cannot thank you all enough for your recommendations.

After watching them, there appears to be 3 distinct hip movement patterns that are promoted (these are my words not theirs):

1. Linear press forward into slightly raised front hip, hips rotate slightly to the ball; rotate full through the ball

2. Lateral move forward with hip rotation initiated on toe touch\foot plant

3. Hip rotation only triggered by front heel down\rear heel up exchange. Little to no forward lateral movement

My examples of these 3 patterns:
#1 Would get flack around here for a variety of reasons (although I still find value in the DVDs). I cannot find a direct example of this pattern in a MLB game. This teacher does have direct MLB experience though and has MLB players in his vids.

Trout\Bautista\Cano as examples of #2. I've seen clips of Miggy doing either #2 or #3. #3 for sure when he doesn't stride.

#3 I would use Ted Williams\Pujols\George Brett as examples.

In these clips of Miggy and Pujols, there is far greater lateral movement before the hips rotate from Miggy v. Pujols
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqoRjU0ZXTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

You can also see examples of this in the model swing thread too.

My questions are this based my\this observation: In the elite pattern, #2 or #3 are the most prevalent.

1. Is one better than the other? Why? Is there a bio-mechanical superiority to one or the other? I'd love a geeky anatomical explanation for this!
2. Is hip rotation unto itself irrelevant in the swing? Is it relevant only in it's relation to hand and\or barrel position?
3. In the #2 pattern, one teacher promotes a more balanced weight distribution (i.e. 50/50) at foot plant while another promotes most of the weight to the front side. Again, is there a mechanical advantage to one or the other?
4. Am I completely off base here? Am I looking at these incorrectly?

Here to learn...

CP

I haven't looked at the clips you provided, I am only commenting on YOUR words.
1) #2 uses a lateral movement and that should include coiled/coiling hips as the hips move laterally. Without coiling/coiled hips a lateral move is just a slide.

2) hip rotation is highly relevant

3)50/50 or even less 60/40 to the rear side is best. Weight to the front side before firing with inhibit the rear hip from rotating properly that has the rear leg/hip being dragged behind instead acting as a driving force.


linear+ rotational That's Bio....... Just MO good luck

 

[Cannonball]

Chris, you have to be patient. The experts will weigh in at some point.

 

[chrispots]

SBP - Thank you!

I completely agree with you...Timing adjustability is definitely one of the things the hover-stride would assist with...IMO, Bautista is a good example of this...

...great we got a 2 person thread....wanna beer? If we bribe them with beer...all sorts usually come out of the woodwork

CP

 

[rdbass]

Chris, you have to be patient. The experts will weigh in at some point.

Chris 'butted in' looking up at Cannonball.

 

[chrispots]

I knew if I mentioned beer guys like you would show up