Shoulders Tied to Swing

[tom.guerry]

I STATED: "In MLB it is a matter of EARLY shoulder/arm/hand/bat action that creates resistance to turning."


MTS asked: "Please answer Yes or No to the following question to answer the above statement:

"Are you talking about scap action that allows the hips to rotate first? "


I then went on to explain what I see as the sequence of arm and scap action, how the upper and lower body synchs and how this is similar and where it is different from overhand throw arm and scap action sequence.

In this thread you have recently stated:

MTS: "But, to be clear the hands are being moved by the muscles in the back (scapula attachments) via the arms. You can get some sub optimal movement by focusing on the hands. My checkpoint is - are the angles formed at the elbows changing much during the load phase and again during the initial unload."

The elbow landmark is a good one for two armed swings, but does not apply to the one arm drills that still need to reproduce the sequence of the full swing.

With respect to location of muscles,I would say that torso/scap/arm and forearm muscles are all important DEPENDING ON the necessary sequence of JOINT ACTIONS, but it does not help too much to describe or work on things at the muscle action level. I find it very useful to work at the bone/skeleton/joint/kinesiological level in analyzing and teaching and learning the MLB pattern. Hodge was the first to emphasize this approach in describing the high level overhand throw as I partially described in a link in the other thread:


You can see the similar (to Hodge overhand throw description) arm/scap MLB pattern hitting action sequences I described before in this Wright video where among other things he is working on arm action to keep the shoulders from flying open.

Likewise you can see the back scap STAY pinched in Wright's one arm back arm drill as it does in the MLB hitting pattern in general, which is different from the action in the unloading part of the overhand throw which involves unloading the scaps symmetrically to finish forming the arm loop for whipping the throwing hand/ball.

It is easier to see Wright's front and back arm sequence frame by frame and back and forth in a quicktime version of the same video:

http://imagine.hittingillustrated.com/david_wright_hands.mov

While scap action is a PART of what happens as the hips continue to lead the hands in the MLB pattern, "fastpitch trainer" 's point is very important:

"The main point is that we want the shoulders to be the effect of what the hands do, and not the cause of what the hands do. If the shoulders turn in because the hands moved back, then great. If the hands moved because of a shoulder turn, then not so great. "

So I would encourage you to look at the back and front arm/scap sequence in detail. This is how I see it:

Back arm/scap (similar to back arm tip and rip drill mentioned in other thread):internal rotation and aBduction and some extension of back arm, THEN pinching and elevation of back scap, THEN external rotation of lead arm (synched with internal rotation of lead arm - lead arm down at side in drill, and synched to external rotation of front leg), THEN scaps tilt (see description in lead arm section) with supination of back forearm, back arm stays extended more fore longer radius, less for shorter radius and arm drops some into "slot" (Slaught/Candrea "connection" position), angle in back elbow does not widen yet/until upper torso uncoils turning shoulders at max speed/momentum, THEN angle widens at back elbow as forearm lowers, back wrist stays dorsiflexed until contact unless swing radius is long in which case the angle continues to widen at the back elbow as the wrist extends.Then lead forearm pronates. Contact is before pronation. ("palm up extension"). In general you would focus on extending wrist right at/through contact. Then there is extension/"V"(formed by combo of both arms). Only then does back scap unpinch.



Lead arm/scap: slight internal rotation and abduction THEN scaps TILT, front scap up,back scap down staying pinched as hips shift base of spine forward (scaps slaved to hand/arm action, not hip/torso action), THEN front scap starts to be turned as hip turn works its way up,hand stays in, lead forearm supinates, THEN lead arm extends slightly in front shoulder socket while staying internally rotated which gets hands away from shoulder a little, THEN lead wrist starts to unhinge, THEN

-for longer swing radius: angle at front elbow starts to widen and lead forearm starts to supinate, THEN lead upper arm EXternally rotates. OR

-for shorter swing radius: lead scap pinches which requires back scap to still be pinched as platform to pinch against across the back/upper spine.THEN lead arm externally rotates.

Contact may be anywhere after lead wrist unhinges and before lead upper arm externally rotates. Then comes full extension/"V".

In general you try to have lead wrist unhinged and bat lined up with lead forearm as ball leaves bat.

 

[RayR]

The elbow landmark is a good one for two armed swings, but does not apply to the one arm drills that still need to reproduce the sequence of the full swing.

Maybe we are watching different video clips of Wright?

 

[tom.guerry]

MTS-

Thanks for responding. I did not understand your point was about each elbow in isolation. I mistakenly thought you were referring to the spacing between the two elbows and whether or not this is retained long enough to accelerate the bathead early/overcome inertia/drag.

My bad.

I agree in the MLB pattern it is important for the back elbow angle to not widen until the torso can get turning at max momentum to power the swing well in sequence. If the angle widens prematurely it ruins the torso cusp.

The lead elbow angle is more adjustable early as swing radius is set, but then needs to stabilize from GO until the lead wrist has started to unhinge.

Here is a Candrea excerpt where he describes live and independent hands meaning elbows lead shoulders in both loading and unloading for adjustability and "addition" (segmentation/summation of levers).

Thanks again.

 

[skeptic]

Here is a Candrea excerpt where he describes live and independent hands meaning elbows lead shoulders in both loading and unloading for adjustability and "addition" (segmentation/summation of levers).

MAYBE that is a good cue for some.

NOT reality.

Aren't you a doctor?

There is no way the elbows can move independently of the shoulders. And you know it. If the elbows move, it is because the shoulders move to permit it. The elbows can NOT LEAD the shoulders if the sholders HAVE to move and / or contract/relax first. Period.


Instead of giving back your usual answer, which is to say "what specific point do you want me to address?" (which is familiarly disingenuous and entirely tired long before now), how about just answering this, as a professional medical practicioner and someone more familiar than most about how the body moves:


Can the elbows move in any way without the shoulders precipitating the move?

How about the hands?

And rather than just regurgitating what Candrea, or someone else, said, or slamming PCR or whomever you associate with it, just answer the question medically.

Cite some kineseological reference books or articles as well, if you would.
Carefully. because I am pretty darned sure I can find dozens of cites to support my contention.


Now, if you want to say that the elbow thing is a good CUE, fine. Do that. Please don't represent it as biological reality. It is not, and I think that you know it.

 

[tom.guerry]

Welcome back skeptic. As I have tried to explain, I think the best way to describe the arm/scap sequence of the MLB pattern is kinesiologically which relates to the structure that is required to produce early batspeed/late adjustability.

This is analagous to Nyman's point in the simulation here that tension is required to maintain a workable model or else everything just collapses in the face of inertia so as little energy is used up as possible. See:

These are the mechanics stripped of muscle/soft tissue, just the skeletal remains and minimal tensions to avoid collapse and resemble the structure/output of the swing.

So likewise I describe the swing sequence kinesiologically similar to the way Hodge described the overhand throw.

So, YES, the elbow can move while the scaps do not, etc. best described in my opinion as a kinesiological sequence as in the detailed post above.

 

[skeptic]

So, YES, the elbow can move while the scaps do not, etc. best described in my opinion as a kinesiological sequence as in the detailed post above.

Again - of course - you didn't answer the question.

Who said anything about scapula? I asked about shoulders. And by-the-way, I didn't ask about just the bone structure, I asked about the SHOULDERS. Which include muscles, nerves, and a lot of other soft tissue beyond just the skeleton.

And if you are considering just the skeleton when you pontificate that distal kinetic links initiate or syncronize movement for proximal links, you're still wrong. But at least you should identify this, because if anyone actually reads your stuff, they are NOT thinking of the shoulder in terms of just the skeleton. They are thinking about the whole thing.


Anyway, I don't care how you think my question is "best described."

As usual, that is subterfuge for the fact that you didn't answer what was asked, merely regurgitated a previoius post.

I would like you to answer the question I actually asked, if you please would. But I don't think you will, because you can't answer my question directly, and still maintain your belief structure. I judge that to mean that your belief structure is shakey, but that's admittedly not my business.


Below is your original statement: Could have been any number of your statements about shoulders being bypassed, elbows triggering rotation of the hips, etc. But this was TODAY'S:

Here is a Candrea excerpt where he describes live and independent hands meaning elbows lead shoulders in both loading and unloading for adjustability and "addition"

My question was:

Can the elbows move in any way without the shoulders precipitating the move?

How about the hands?

And rather than just regurgitating what Candrea, or someone else, said, or slamming PCR or whomever you associate with it, just answer the question medically.


Cite some kineseological reference books or articles as well, if you would.

Carefully.

Because I am pretty darned sure I can find dozens of cites to support my contention.


Now, if you want to say that the elbow thing is a good CUE, fine. Do that. Please don't represent it as biological reality. It is not, and I think that you know it.

Setpro is NOT a kineseolgical or medical cite.

But you're a doctor, so how hard can it be to reference medical literature supporting your claim that the hands can actually move INDEPENDENTLY of the arms and shoulders? Or that the elbows can move independently of the shoulders?


Take a hint, and I'll once more offer you a lifeline. If you want to say this is a CUE, fine. But it's not reality.


Of course, cues are feel-based and individual. Some are better than others, but none are universal. So when you describe cues, you're still going to have a problem, because you don't work with hitters, so you don't know which cues are most effective. But that's a better problem to have than being an MD (and by all accounts a good one) and misrepresenting how the body actually works. NO ONE should want to win an argument that badly.

 

[Slapper23]

Skeptic,

I don't know the fine details of kinesiology, I will admit. But I have studied hitting long enough to know we are talking about two distinctly different modes of unloading the bat into the pitch. Fastpitch Trainer did a nice job, IMO, of getting to the bottomline differences between the two -

The main point is that we want the shoulders to be the effect of what the hands do, and not the cause of what the hands do. If the shoulders turn in because the hands moved back, then great. If the hands moved because of a shoulder turn, then not so great.

You are not trying to move the bat without any type of shoulder turn, you basically want the Cause/Effect relationship to be right.

Simply gripping and hanging onto the bat and keeping tension in the lead shoulder/arm/hand/bat connection, and agressively turning the shoulders so the bat passes through a flail/whip movement, using centrifical force causing the wrists to unhinge and the bat to fly off the merry-go-round into whip is one mode.

Another, and one I believe is used by most ML hitters, is to not use the shoulders as I described above, but to use the hands and arms to actively get the bat moving into load and unload. Shoulder rotation is delayed as the lower body begins to rotate into toe touch and stretch is created while the upper torso begins to laterally tilt (shoulders resist turning) and the hands/arms begin to turn the bat and get the hands flat quickly. At the cusp of load/unload, maximum stretch is achieved (hips win the battle), and the upper torso unloads into the pitch. In this mode, the top hand/rear scap is of much greater importance, hence Candrea's (Yeager's, too) top hand throwing motion.

David Wright is talking about not using the shoulders to actively turn and power the bat. He is more in line with my description in the previous paragraph. Bottomline, IMHO, is you either use the shoulders to turn like hell while hanging onto the bat and create whip or you do not use the shoulders in that role, but instead have live and independent hands to begin the load/unload process. Related to that is a lead shoulder/arm vs. rear shoulder/ arm emphasis. It is still a entire body process, but the sequencing and movements are much different. In one method there is a flail/whip movement. In the other, and the one I prefer to teach, hell, we ain't got no stinkin' flail, we whip!

Paul Nyman always said the legs are not force producers in the swing, but instead support the pelvic muscles in initiating middle-out rotation - the legs support the middle. I look at the shoulder/arm-hand relationship in the same way, that is, the shoulders support what the hands and arms want and need to do.

And lastly, Fastpitch Trainer included an important detail..

You are not trying to move the bat without any type of shoulder turn, you basically want the Cause/Effect relationship to be right.

I agree 100%.


Mike

 

[skeptic]

Simply gripping and hanging onto the bat and keeping tension in the lead shoulder/arm/hand/bat connection, and agressively turning the shoulders so the bat passes through a flail/whip movement, using centrifical force causing the wrists to unhinge and the bat to fly off the merry-go-round into whip is one mode.

You're deflecting. Fight whatever battle you have with the PCR guys with them.

I'm simply looking for an answer to a question.

Simple question.

I knw neither you or Tom want to answer the question the way I posed it, because it doesn't fit your desired presentation.

Still a fair question, with an obvious answer.

Rather than just trying to find different ways to NOT answer the question, how about just answering it?

 

[RayR]

David Wright is talking about not using the shoulders to actively turn and power the bat. He is more in line with my description in the previous paragraph. Bottomline, IMHO, is you either use the shoulders to turn like hell while hanging onto the bat and create whip or you do not use the shoulders in that role, but instead have live and independent hands to begin the load/unload process. Related to that is a lead shoulder/arm vs. rear shoulder/ arm emphasis. It is still a entire body process, but the sequencing and movements are much different. In one method there is a flail/whip movement. In the other, and the one I prefer to teach, hell, we ain't got no stinkin' flail, we whip!




Mike

Wright is using a cue. If you watch the clip I posted the shoulders are turning. To be understood as the hips turn then the torso then the shoulder complex.

The shoulder includes the upper arm, clavicle and scapula. They have to move if the bat is going to move.

Maybe Wright has battled getting lazy with his lower body and this is the cue he uses?

Either way, it is impossible for the hands to direct the shoulder movement seeing how the humerus is part of the shoulder. It is a nice cue, though.

 

[Wellphyt]

I have a couple of girls on my team that are not swinging the bat without opening up their shoulders at the same time they swing the bat. The begining of their swing does not have their hands moving independent of their shoulders.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to correct this? Thanks!

These girls sound like classic hands to the ball/linear hitters. They have likely been taught to keep their front shoulder closed into contact. My daughter's Middle School coach last fall taught linear hitting and constantly harped on her to keep her front shoulder closed. He was seeing my daughter's swing through the eyes of someone who has no clue how ML hitters hit. The only swing he is familar with is linear.

So when my daughter rotated around her axis and her front shoulder opened, what he saw was a linear hitter pulling her head and shoulders off the ball. As a rotational hitter my daughter never pulls her head off the ball, but that's what he thought he was seeing.

If this is what these girls have been taught, you may have to start from scratch and do a complete overhaul of their swings.