Seam Shifted Wakes

[ArmWhip]

Here is a link to a post in a thread on SSW's that contains some mind blowing video and will open up a whole new way of thinking about breaking pitches that are not dependent on the Magnus Effect. I have been following this thread for quite a while and due to the scientific terms used it has given me numerous headaches, at times it is a difficult read. What I don't know is how it applies to softballs, which are bigger and heavier than a baseball, but also less dense.

You can throw a screwball without "screwball" spin, notice the seam orientation differences in the side by side video.

https://www.baseballaero.com/2020/02/10/the-state-of-baseball-aerodynamics-post-47/

 

[texasheat]

Here is a link to a post in a thread on SSW's that contains some mind blowing video and will open up a whole new way of thinking about breaking pitches that are not dependent on the Magnus Effect. I have been following this thread for quite a while and due to the scientific terms used it has given me numerous headaches, at times it is a difficult read. What I don't know is how it applies to softballs, which are bigger and heavier than a baseball, but also less dense.

You can throw a screwball without "screwball" spin, notice the seam orientation differences in the side by side video.

https://www.baseballaero.com/2020/02/10/the-state-of-baseball-aerodynamics-post-47/

I think a lot of the "there is no such thing as a screwball in fastpitch" is just a semantics thing. If you define a screwball as a pitch that has a 3-9 rotation, then you are correct in your assertion that there are no screwballs in fastpitch. But if a screwball is defined as a pitch that starts middle plate and moves inside on a RH batter (and not just by the angle thrown) then screwballs most definitely exist because I have caught them with my own hand. You don't have to have perfect 3-9 rotation for a ball to move L-R (from the pitcher's perspective). Heck watch any knuckleball pitcher's highlights and you will see movement like crazy with zero spin.

I've often wondered why people try to define the pitch by the rotation as opposed to the movement?

 

[radness]

It is probably/possibly more common for pitches to NOT be exactly
perfectly dialed in at these references~
6-12
12-6
3-9
9-3
quite possibly the individual influences of say
"Off spin" aka not thrown exactly 4-11 or 7-2
create more diversity on movement and deception making different locations useful to different pitchers.
Michelle Grainger is a great example of not being consistant. Which included her throwing at higher speeds with off centered spins created wild movement.
At times undecernable.

Lets remember spin angle,
its revolution speed, and the speed of the ball being thrown all play a factor.

imo how the pitcher releases the ball is the first important indicator to hitters.
Then spin and pitch speed.
Example~ Certain change ups give themself away at the very beginning....others dont.

 

[cnardone]

I've often wondered why people try to define the pitch by the rotation as opposed to the movement?

I think as @RADcatcher mentions the grip & release or how it is thrown should determine the name. I believe that is what RAD are saying.
Clff Lee threw a 2 seemer and Fernando Valenzuela threw a screw ball. They both got arm side run down and away. I believe (I could be wrong) they were thrown differently.

 

[sluggers]

I think a lot of the "there is no such thing as a screwball in fastpitch" is just a semantics thing. If you define a screwball as a pitch that has a 3-9 rotation, then you are correct in your assertion that there are no screwballs in fastpitch.

Yes.

But if a screwball is defined as a pitch that starts middle plate and moves inside on a RH batter (and not just by the angle thrown) then screwballs most definitely exist because I have caught them with my own hand.

Yes... @riseball is the guy who convinced me that it can be done.

I've often wondered why people try to define the pitch by the rotation as opposed to the movement?

First, there is a need to teach how to throw pitches. So, a PC needs someway to explain what the pitcher is trying to do.

Second, most of the systems that do pitch tracking calculate spin rather than detect spin. That is, the systems (1) find the initial location and initial speed of the ball and (2) find the end location and final speed of the ball and *then* calculate the spin based upon the Magnus Force equations.

In baseball, they just come up with new names for pitches.

 

[radness]

I mentioned pitchers release because it often shows what spin they are trying to produce. So yes it can help determine.

Just an interpretation on this~
To the question of why people people define pitches by rotation not movement.
Perhaps because the rotation should generally define the movement.
Spin/rotation happens befor evidence of movement.
Even if there isnt much movement still have to contend with the spin.

Agree with @sluggers as well on spin rotation being communication tools in teaching.
Do this to produce that.

 

[ArmWhip]

It seems that there are two ways to make a pitch break, Magnus force and seam shifted wakes. Using Magnus force is the traditional way and not too difficult to understand, just get the ball to spin on a desired axis. Research in baseball has also shown that seam orientation matters very little when using Magnus. 2 seam, 4 seam, cross seam all produce about the same amount of drag on the surface of the ball.
Seam shifted wakes are a lot different. First you need some degree of bullet spin, and you need to be able to reliably reproduce it with accuracy, if the spin is a little off axis you get no movement. Not like a Magnus pitch where if the axis is off a bit the pitch will still move. Then you need to have a grip that will get the seams to be in the right location as the ball rotates to be able to catch the air and cause the wake to detach from the ball. Classic two seam grips have to be adjusted to be able to do this. A lot of trial and error is involved. Unlike Magnus pitches, with SSW pitches the break is not directly related to RPM, there is a minimum, but more spin does not mean more break. From what I read the key to SSW pitches is to get the horseshoe part of the seam of the ball to rotate in a specfic location on the back part of the ball. The Trevor Bauer pitch in the video gives you a good look at this. However the seam can be located in different places to cause movement in different directions.

 

[uncdrew]

Wonder how that works.

My DD's fastball moves to the right. I'm kinda stoked about that. I can't explain it.

 

[_MIA_]

Wakes effect stress distributions (which is related pressure) on the objects which cause them. This is why you see the wingtips bent upwards on some newer aircraft (that changes the wake and reduces drag a bit). In this case the asymmetric wake, which causes asymmetric pressure distribution on opposing sides of the ball, is caused by the flow separating (becoming "detached" from the surface) at different locations on either side of the ball which in turn is due to seem orientation.

 

[625ender]

My DD's fastball moves to the right. I'm kinda stoked about that. I can't explain it.

The middle finger is the longest, strongest, and most inline with the forearm. Overhand throws naturally break glove side and underhanded throws break throwing hand side