Scrimmage starting with a 1-1 count
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I don't think we can truly compare taking a pitch in baseball and taking one in softball. MLB pitchers are on a pitch count in most games and that's usually around 100. I am yet to see a softball pitcher come out of a game after a certain number of pitches. Now if it happens it's not broadcast like it is in baseball. You also don't see Clayton Kershaw pitch the next day but you will see the #1 in Softball throw until the job is done.
The approach in baseball is much different than softball. Work the count, get to the weaker bullpen and tire the team out for the next 2 days. Softball if you work the count too much the pitchers stats are going to look good after a weekend series.
The approach in baseball is much different than softball. Work the count, get to the weaker bullpen and tire the team out for the next 2 days. Softball if you work the count too much the pitchers stats are going to look good after a weekend series.
I read something Max Scherzer said last year about 1-1 counts. He said his college coach used to say it was the most important pitch for a pitcher. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 in the way the pitcher and the batter approaches the rest of the at bat is so big that it makes that pitch more important.
Not sure if that helps this conversation but I found it interesting and started to pay more attention to what happened on 1-1 counts.
Not sure if that helps this conversation but I found it interesting and started to pay more attention to what happened on 1-1 counts.
If the intent of seeing more pitches is to get to the bullpen, then I agree: as I said earlier, I don't see that as any sort of reasonable approach in FP.
OTOH, seeing more pitches to help get a handle on the pitcher is a solid approach in any bat & ball sport, hence my Ted Williams reference. If you go up swinging at the first pitch, even if it's beautiful, you still only have a 3/10-ish chance of hitting safely, and you haven't helped yourself for future AB's because you haven't seen enough pitches. Your 2nd AB may as well be your 1st at that point.
BUT - sometimes, ol' Ted would tee off on a 1st pitch, just to keep the pitchers honest!
So what you're saying is that, in baseball, it is a good strategy to risk having a weaker at-bat earlier in the game in hopes of drawing more pitches in the long run and getting to the bullpen earlier? Although I hear people talk about that, it makes no sense to me.
Theoretically, every hitter has a pitch-selection strategy that gives him the best chance of success for any given at-bat. That strategy will change AB to AB based on the pitcher, the game situation. Of course, it's very difficult to execute that strategy, as pitch selection is a major challenge. But in theory, it's possible to have an optimal strategy on which pitches to swing at and which ones to take, again depending on count, location, etc.
Now, if the coach decides that the team also will have the goal of driving up the pitch count to get into the bullpen, then you are asking hitters to adopt a different strategy. If a secondary goal is to see more pitches, then you have to adopt a strategy that compromises your chances of having the best possible outcome right now.
Put a more simple way -- I have a .900 OPS doing it one way. Now you're telling me to change my current pitch-selection strategy, the one that produces the .900, in order to watch more pitches so as to tire the pitcher. One of two things will happen -- my OPS will go down, which I don't believe is a good tradeoff in hopes that the pitcher will get tired; or my OPS will stay the same or go up, which means my original pitch-selection strategy was not optimized in the first place.
I'm not convinced that it is wise to reduce my current production in hopes of getting to the bullpen early.
One HUGE difference between softball and baseball: base stealing is far more common in softball.
If there is a fast runner on base, taking a pitch can move a runner over. Better than a sac bunt, since the batter isn't out, and merely picks up a strike or a ball.
An example, from one of the last games DD #1 played before she hung up her cleats:
On this particular team, DD #1 hit in the 4 spot. She started in the 1 spot, but had enough power to be moved to the 4 spot. She was also the best base runner. The second best base runner, with a little more power, was the RF, in the 3 spot. The SS in the 5 spot also had a pretty good mix of speed and power.
Set the scene: late in the game, girl in the 2 spot made the last out the previous inning. Relief pitcher comes in. This pitcher faced DD #1 in 3 plate appearances in a couple of games before then, results were single, followed by SB and CS at 3rd; HR; BB followed by 2 SB and score on either a SB or a passed ball, I didn't see clearly. First batter is the RF in the 3 spot.
RF works the count, walks. Next up, DD #1 (3B)
DD #1 works the count. RF steals 2nd, then 3rd. DD #1 gets an RBI single.
SS works the count. DD #1 steals 2nd, then 3rd, then scores on a passed ball.
True, they were mostly working the count to get a good ball to hit or else walk, but with good base runners on base, working the count advances the runners no matter what. I can't remember whether the SS got on base or not, but any at-bat in which you advance a runner from first to home is a good at bat, even if you strike out.
If there is a fast runner on base, taking a pitch can move a runner over. Better than a sac bunt, since the batter isn't out, and merely picks up a strike or a ball.
An example, from one of the last games DD #1 played before she hung up her cleats:
On this particular team, DD #1 hit in the 4 spot. She started in the 1 spot, but had enough power to be moved to the 4 spot. She was also the best base runner. The second best base runner, with a little more power, was the RF, in the 3 spot. The SS in the 5 spot also had a pretty good mix of speed and power.
Set the scene: late in the game, girl in the 2 spot made the last out the previous inning. Relief pitcher comes in. This pitcher faced DD #1 in 3 plate appearances in a couple of games before then, results were single, followed by SB and CS at 3rd; HR; BB followed by 2 SB and score on either a SB or a passed ball, I didn't see clearly. First batter is the RF in the 3 spot.
RF works the count, walks. Next up, DD #1 (3B)
DD #1 works the count. RF steals 2nd, then 3rd. DD #1 gets an RBI single.
SS works the count. DD #1 steals 2nd, then 3rd, then scores on a passed ball.
True, they were mostly working the count to get a good ball to hit or else walk, but with good base runners on base, working the count advances the runners no matter what. I can't remember whether the SS got on base or not, but any at-bat in which you advance a runner from first to home is a good at bat, even if you strike out.
Good points, Bob. The SB is more prominent in softball, and I would agree that sometimes it is worth taking a pitch that you might ordinarily swing at.
But, depending on the hitter and the pitcher, you'd still need to be careful. For example, you say that DD#1 worked the count. What do you mean by that? What was the count after the 2 stolen bases? If it's 2-0, she didn't really work the count. She just took 2 balls that she should always take. If it's 1-1, and the 1 strike was right down the middle, then it depends on how good a hitter DD is. If this was a player that you were just hoping could move a runner over, then it's probably worth it. But if it's your best hitter, I'd rather her take a shot at a pitch down the middle rather than risk getting a 2nd called strike.
But, depending on the hitter and the pitcher, you'd still need to be careful. For example, you say that DD#1 worked the count. What do you mean by that? What was the count after the 2 stolen bases? If it's 2-0, she didn't really work the count. She just took 2 balls that she should always take. If it's 1-1, and the 1 strike was right down the middle, then it depends on how good a hitter DD is. If this was a player that you were just hoping could move a runner over, then it's probably worth it. But if it's your best hitter, I'd rather her take a shot at a pitch down the middle rather than risk getting a 2nd called strike.
It would be tough to quantify, but ML hitters are likely better at 0-0 then 1-1 because the best hitters in the world tend to swing at 0-0 pitches when it's in the zone they are looking for versus 1-1 when they have to expand their zone.
While a lot depends on the hitter the worst 2 things in general that you can do are.
1. Always take the first pitch
2. Always swing at the first pitch that is a strike.
I hate seeing a pitch that just off the plate at the knees on the first that is called a strike and hearing the coach tell the kid you have to swing at strikes. Now with a strike or 2 you might have to attack that pitch, but I would rather see them wait for a better pitch.
While a lot depends on the hitter the worst 2 things in general that you can do are.
1. Always take the first pitch
2. Always swing at the first pitch that is a strike.
I hate seeing a pitch that just off the plate at the knees on the first that is called a strike and hearing the coach tell the kid you have to swing at strikes. Now with a strike or 2 you might have to attack that pitch, but I would rather see them wait for a better pitch.
I really can't remember each pitch that clearly, since it was a couple of years ago. Come to think of it, DD #1 almost never took a called strike. She would usually foul off the ones she didn't like and take only balls. She had an excellent ability to tell if a very close pitch was in or out of the strike zone, so I almost never saw her chase bad pitches. I mean, there were plenty of times I saw her with a 1-2 or even 0-2 count, and just watch a close pitch go by, which would almost invariably be called a ball. Her nerves were better than mine.
Occasionally she would get a called strike, but usually that meant the ump was wrong.
This way, she would stay alive until she either got something worth hitting, or else a walk. In the process, runners had plenty of time to advance.
