Scoring: Can a forceout be scored a hit?

[CoogansBluff]

If there were no runners on would a centre fielder with ordinary effort have thrown the runner out at first? No therefore the batter should have been credited a hit.

To me any hit to the outfield that results in the runner getting on is a safe hit (unless its a muffed fly of course)

The example of the ball dropping and the runner getting caught out at second. Would the batter have been out at first with ordinary effort? If the answer is no it's a safe hit.

The fact that a batter might've been safe at first is irrelevant, IMO. For example, let's say you've got runners on first and second, and the SS or the 3B makes a diving stop and has only one play - to third base - to get the out. If the defense makes that play, it's clearly a forceout and not a base hit, even if the batter had crossed first base before the out was made. Wouldn't you agree?

To me it would be a fielders choice, unless the base runner on 1B did something boneheaded, which would result in the batter being credited with a hit and an error on the base runner.

That sounds fair, but not legal. A runner can't be charged with an error.

IMO, the ASA is clear on this when it states: "A BASE HIT shall not be scored when a runner is forced out on a batted ball or would have been forced out except for a fielding error.''

 

[Lozza]

The fact that a batter might've been safe at first is irrelevant, IMO. For example, let's say you've got runners on first and second, and the SS or the 3B makes a diving stop and has only one play - to third base - to get the out. If the defense makes that play, it's clearly a forceout and not a base hit, even if the batter had crossed first base before the out was made. Wouldn't you agree?

Would the runner have been out at first if the shortstop had thrown to first? If the answer is no then it's a hit.

Ill give you another example. I was scoring a game last weekend where it was a close play at first. First base dropped it. The other scorer and I discussed whether he'd have been safe if the first base has caught it. We decided he wouldn't be so we scored an error on 1st. If we felt he'd have been safe as would have awarded a hit and no error to 1st. (Though he would have got an error as the runner then advanced to second)

 

[CoogansBluff]

Would the runner have been out at first if the shortstop had thrown to first? If the answer is no then it's a hit.

Ill give you another example. I was scoring a game last weekend where it was a close play at first. First base dropped it. The other scorer and I discussed whether he'd have been safe if the first base has caught it. We decided he wouldn't be so we scored an error on 1st. If we felt he'd have been safe as would have awarded a hit and no error to 1st. (Though he would have got an error as the runner then advanced to second)

Those are two different situations, Lozza. You were correct in how you scored the play that you describe. But whether a player would have been safe at first no longer matters WHEN the defense executes a force at another base, imo. It only matters on plays to first (like the one you described), or when all runners are safe and no throw is made to first.

 

[CoogansBluff]

Regarding the ball hit into the outfield, here is a recent story in a newspaper:

Hit turned fielder's choice saves Smith's no-hitter
By staff reports
Updated: 04/19/2013 11:42:14 PM PDT


MIDDLETOWN -- What normally would have been a clean base hit into right field off the bat of Lower Lake's Josh McCarty ended up being no more than a fielder's choice on Friday, much to the relief of Middletown pitcher Logan Smith.

A bit of bad base running by the Trojans and a strong throw by Middletown right fielder Blaine Amos helped keep intact Logan Smith's no-hitter as the Mustangs blanked the Trojans 10-0 in a North Central League I varsity baseball game called after five innings because of the 10-run rule.

Smith walked a batter in front of McCarty's smash into right field, but the runner, not knowing if the ball would be caught, got a late break. Amos threw a strike to younger brother Josiah, the Middletown shortstop, who simply stepped on second base for the force. McCarty then stole second base - the only Lower Lake player to make it that far - before Smith struck out the next two batters to end the inning.

 

[Lozza]

I'm scoring a tournament in a week. Ill ask the opinion of the top level scoters there. (We have rules and levels here)

 

[ejg70]

I am not a "top level scorer" but I think the ordinary effort part of the rule refers to scoring a hit or error, the same as with no runners on base i.e. a great diving stop but failure to throw out the runner should be scored a hit rather than error on the fielder since it wasn't an ordinary effort.

If an out is made on a preceding runner then it should be a FC.

 

[Sweet Lou]

Would the runner have been out at first if the shortstop had thrown to first? If the answer is no then it's a hit.

That's being incredibly nice to the batter, but it is totally contrary to accepted scorekeeping rules. Many batters have lost would be hits in the hole if no one had been on base that turned out to be force plays at 2nd.

 

[Scl1991]

The ball is hit to the outfield and there is no play on the batter, but there is a force out on a preceding runner (even if not made due to error) cannot be credited a hit. It's a Fielders Choice. The batter has some obligation to protect the runner. Maybe that proceeding runner didn't run properly, but that's just bad luck for the batter.
Game this past week, runner on 3rd. My daughter hits a nice ball to center. Caught. Base runner tags up and goes home. Should have been a nice Sac Fly for my daughter but the runner had left the bag too early after tagging up so she was called out. Just like that, the Sac Fly disappeared and became a regular fly out through no fault of hers.

 

[CoogansBluff]

The ball is hit to the outfield and there is no play on the batter, but there is a force out on a preceding runner (even if not made due to error) cannot be credited a hit. It's a Fielders Choice. The batter has some obligation to protect the runner. Maybe that proceeding runner didn't run properly, but that's just bad luck for the batter.
Game this past week, runner on 3rd. My daughter hits a nice ball to center. Caught. Base runner tags up and goes home. Should have been a nice Sac Fly for my daughter but the runner had left the bag too early after tagging up so she was called out. Just like that, the Sac Fly disappeared and became a regular fly out through no fault of hers.

Good comparison w/ the sac fly. Batters can't blame the base runners.

 

[coach james]

I don't know that I would agree on a fielders choice in this specific scenario. The ball was hit into the outfield and a force out was applied to the lead runner. I would award a hit to the batter, because the fielder didn't nescicerally have an option to create a fielders choice.