Push off loaded back foot to start rotational swing or not?

[tom.guerry]

the MLB/high level pattern BB swing does have a back foot push as demonstrated by among otherd Yeager ground force/force plate measurements. Yeager has a website and DVD;s and has also described things in several posts at SHAWN's old site, Shawn may be able to provide a link.


and as Yeager points out the early phases of the MLB swing include back leg load and back leg push and are very similar to overhand throw.

The same thing is seen in motionanalysis as with:

Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum



"The forward swing is then initiated at the ground with the application of force to the back foot. As force is applied to the back foot, it creates a linear shift of weight, at the same time, their is a release of rotational energy around (rotating) from the front foot up to the hip of the front leg (the heal of which has dropped during the linear/rotational shift, to provide a solid front side to hit against)."

==========

An important thing to understand is that what is meant by PUSH is a force that uses the back foot as a base to accelerate the center of gravity of the body forward on line.

This does not say HOW/WHAT muscles produce the force.

In the MLB pattern, the early part of the "positive move" is by a push mainly from spreading the legs (leg ABduction).

later there is eversion and extension of the back foot.

The "PUSH" is not actively/primarily by back leg extension at the knee.

There may be other "rotational" patterns besides the MLB pattern which do not have this sort of sequence/push

 

[tom.guerry]

nice clip for seeing push and back foot action in MLB pattern:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/deemax32/will clark/WClark1.gif

 

[Hitter]

Nice meeting many of you at the Evangel U. clinic over the weekend. It will be interesting to hear your feed back.

Thanks Howard

 

[skeptic]

Howard:

Would you guess that YOU learned more from working with hitters today then you would have by looking at a video of Will Clark's back foot?

I ask, because on the other side of the equation, it is obvious you were able to actually help a number of young athletes today. I'm sure they learned a lot. Good for you!

 

[tom.guerry]

Hey skeppie -

great to hear from you again.

I find overall videoanalysis looking for pattern is a very important way to measure and objectify things. For MLB pattern, the "frame counting" thing does not work becasue the swing is so quick and adjustable and the starting point for swing is too difficult to pin down. Frame counting may work for the "gate swing" where you have less early batspeed and have to commit early. Learning to see surface representation of the under the hood actions and motions of the high level MLB pattern is important to learn how to use video when you compare what you and your students are doing to what the best in the word are doing.
The better you understand the patterns and what differentiates a gate swing from a sing with good addition summation,etc the simpler and more effective you can instruct.

Likewise understanding in the case of the high level MLB pattern how throwing and swinging relate can help make things very simple. Simplicity on the other side of complexity as they say.

As our ol' buddy Zig would say, have a positive day.

 

[Hitter]

Howard:

Would you guess that YOU learned more from working with hitters today then you would have by looking at a video of Will Clark's back foot?

I ask, because on the other side of the equation, it is obvious you were able to actually help a number of young athletes today. I'm sure they learned a lot. Good for you!

I think as a teacher/ coach the greatest feeling in the world you can have is when you see them get it and they get that smile! I think we had several that GOT IT this weekend! There is nothing like hands on training and the ability to get them to see it, feel it and fix it! If you noticed the mirrors on wheels was used a lot. Coach Breaux was dogged by me a couple years ago to put the mirrors in. He even said the mirrors had become an important part of teaching the hitters as well as the pitchers!

You know we stressed how working off the tee and tracking mechanics are not understood well enough and even the coaches that were there said we have missed an important step in teaching our kids how to do it. The face the fire drill was an eye opener after the tee work as it offered the kids a coordination drill by multi tasking to track, move their body under their head using the feet, momentum and separation. I think combined with the hand over drill the sequence of how we taught it is what pays off in the long run of establishing good swing mechanics. These are females not MLB players and I am sick of hearing MLB Elite Swing patterns. You saw two NPF Elite Swing examples and I work with females for the most part and an apple is not an orange no matter how you present it! The girls as we demonstrated over and over are built differently and learn differently and then after that you could compare or say as Coach Enquist or Coach Candrea say the swings are virtually the same. However until you actually teach it you would never know by just looking at a clip of someone doing it or trying to explain how it is done from just video. I have learn not all kids learn the same or even see a video the same way and if you can not break it done NOT every kid will get it either!

Thanks Howard

 

[jinjet95]

Howard,

It was great meeting you this weekend! I can't thank you enough for spending your time helping my daughter "get it" on Saturday. She's been taking hitting instruction for a few years and has had some success, but never understood why she's told to do things a certain way. As a result, she doesn't always remember to set up the same way every time. Your're right that it's not rocket science, but the way you explain things makes it so simple! The little drills you demonstrated made all the difference. Now it's easy for me to tell what she's missing. Before Saturday, I knew when something was off in her swing, but couldn't always tell her why. The progress she made in those few hours was huge. I can't tell you how exciting it was for my husband and I to see the understanding in her face. She has continually practiced those seven steps since we left you on Saturday. I'm looking forward to keeping you posted on her progress throughout the season. We'll definitely be taking the trip back to Springfield next year. Anytime you're going to be within a couple of hours of St. Louis, please let me know.

Thanks again,
Brenda

 

[Hitter]

Howard,

It was great meeting you this weekend! I can't thank you enough for spending your time helping my daughter "get it" on Saturday. She's been taking hitting instruction for a few years and has had some success, but never understood why she's told to do things a certain way. As a result, she doesn't always remember to set up the same way every time. Your're right that it's not rocket science, but the way you explain things makes it so simple! The little drills you demonstrated made all the difference. Now it's easy for me to tell what she's missing. Before Saturday, I knew when something was off in her swing, but couldn't always tell her why. The progress she made in those few hours was huge. I can't tell you how exciting it was for my husband and I to see the understanding in her face. She has continually practiced those seven steps since we left you on Saturday. I'm looking forward to keeping you posted on her progress throughout the season. We'll definitely be taking the trip back to Springfield next year. Anytime you're going to be within a couple of hours of St. Louis, please let me know.

Thanks again,
Brenda

Brenda thank you for braving the snow to come see us! Your daughter is typical of being able to actually show her verses looking at films or clips. She got it by doing it and seeing herself in the mirrors and feeling it. Part of her going from right to left is that conversion of actually doing things like a lefty which is why we do the ball in a hand drill and the whiffer stick as I explained to your husband how to make. Let me know if he forgets how to make it. We got a lot of attention when see used the hammer on the stage and you could hear the difference in using the wrist to release the hammer head! The smile she got said it all. We think we have a where the kids learn a lot in a short amount of time.

Thanks again for introducing yourself and having the conversation as you now saw it for yourself.

Howard

 

[skeptic]

The girls as we demonstrated over and over are built differently and learn differently and then after that you could compare or say as Coach Enquist or Coach Candrea say the swings are virtually the same. However until you actually teach it you would never know by just looking at a clip of someone doing it or trying to explain how it is done from just video.

Couldn't agree more.

It isn't that I don't see the importance of video. We we use it every day.

What doesn't seem important to me is the constant comparing of video at an incredibly detailed level without actually working with a hitter. The finest understanding of video in the world, not that anyone on THIS thread is close to that, is almost meaningless without putting it to work. I respect what you do, Howard. And certainly respect some of the other people on this thread who are actually working with kids. THAT makes for a positive day.

 

[Hitter]

Couldn't agree more.

It isn't that I don't see the importance of video. We we use it every day.

What doesn't seem important to me is the constant comparing of video at an incredibly detailed level without actually working with a hitter. The finest understanding of video in the world, not that anyone on THIS thread is close to that, is almost meaningless without putting it to work. I respect what you do, Howard. And certainly respect some of the other people on this thread who are actually working with kids. THAT makes for a positive day.

The coaches who allowed us to have some fun at their expense really helps bring it home to the kids and they learn also and hopefully have fun participating. You can explain away until the cows come home about the back foot toe....when you see a three hundred pound man going backwards from a punch that was two inches from their chest, that is funny when someone thinks it can not be done. It does not require as much hip movement as everyone thinks until they understand you must be on time in your swing and be under control while doing it. Too many kids, parents and coaches think you must be going full tilt to hit a ball out of the park and that is just not true. Bruce Lee was very wise become the water my friend. Several of the kids got it when we did the water bottle in front of the mirror and then I had them hold the bottle just below the belly button with both hands and pointed to the hips and said this is where the water movement should be felt.

Video is important as it allows some hitters to understand what they are doing good, better or best however some do not get it that fast and working with them to feel it and see where the ball is actually being hit makes them get it....it is all good if you know how to teach it!

We are looking to be at Pittsburgh this weekend! Do not give up any of the secrets please!

Thanks Howard